Palestinian Boy Kidnapped and Murdered.

[Prestwich_Blue]

I think the consensus is that they remove the settlements and give the land back and give the Palestinians a state that is unhindered by blockades.

When that happens and IF Hamas continue with the rockets and antagonist actions the solution would need to be revisited.

Rockets are still being fired during the truce. The Palestinian leadership simply can't be trusted (although I appreciate that they don't have a great deal of faith in the Israelis either).

For what it's worth I don't think Hamas will stop even if these concessions are made and Israel implement all their demands with regards to Palestine.

But the cycle that continues has to be broken and at the very least the international community will view Israel in a different light and all work together to stop Hamas in the long run....also the groundswell of support for Hamas would be stopped if the Palestinians had something to work towards.

As a bystander watching events unfold in the Muslim world of extremism it's very difficult to get a handle on the reasons why some radical organisations are hell bent on the destruction of others (The Afghan bomb killing 80+ people in a marketplace two days ago is an example).

It leaves me thinking is it the way it's being reported to me or is the Muslim world of death just a media created agenda?

Please excuse the naivety of a Manc in his living room commenting on wider world issues.

That's a very pertinent and astute post. The only thing I'd take issue with is that the Israeli leadership care less about how the international community view them than how they are viewed domestically. Netanyahu is being criticised by his right wing cabinet members for being too soft, not too tough. Given the fragile nature of Israeli coalitions, their support is more important to him if he wants to remain in power than Britain or France thinking what a jolly good chap he is.

The other point, about the nature of the media, is an interesting one. I think it's a bit of both. You hear about Sunni atrocities aimed at Shias but often don't get the full picture and context of how Shias may have done to the Sunnis something similar to what Israel has done to the Palestinians. Marginalise them economically and socially, demonise them and subject them to repression. There is certainly an element in the Muslim world that is simply hell bent on the destruction of others, even other Muslims. We've seen that here, with the 7/7 bombings and the murder of Lee Rigby.

But what you don't often see is the acts of kindness and co-operation between communities. Bradford Muslims paid for a synagogue to be restored. A synagogue in South Manchester invited Muslims to break their Ramadan fast one evening. There's a Jewish City fan called Heather Fletcher who is secretary of the Greater Manchester Muslim Jewish Forum, which does some great work. The focus of the GMMJF is what unites the two religions and communities (quite a lot of things surprisingly) rather than what divides them.

The solution in all these things is for decent people to stand up against the extremists but sadly it's usually the ones who shout the loudest who prevail.

 

[Crab Paste!]

It wasn't an agreed truce though was it? The UN have lobbied so that the pesky Palestinian civilians can get some food and fresh water after 9 days of bombardment.

According to Al Jazeera, the source people are praising for its even-handed reporting:

In a statement in response, Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said: "The group agrees to a ceasefire for five hours".

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/israel-temporarily-halt-fire-gaza-strip-201471620212427540.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeas ... 27540.html</a>

They can't even stop for a few hours despite publicly agreeing to. How can you trust them?

It's clear the political side isn't in control of the military (terrorist) wing. The military (terrorist) wing of Hamas are their own group basically and don't follow orders they don't want to follow.

Correct Skash (although PB knows this full well as he has commented on it in the past), the political wing of Hamas has almost no control over the Qassam Brigades, what's more, the Qassam Brigades aren't the only group responsible for rocket fire into Israel. There are several militant groups operating in Gaza, some of them consist of only four or five members, and they are fucking nutters who wont be controlled by anyone.

To say it is Hamas firing all the rockets is both slightly misleading, and over simplistic.



On a side note, this gave me a rueful smile during what has been a fucking horrific week.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40R3Yb7DTzo[/video]

 

[No6]

Rockets are still being fired during the truce. The Palestinian leadership simply can't be trusted (although I appreciate that they don't have a great deal of faith in the Israelis either).

For what it's worth I don't think Hamas will stop even if these concessions are made and Israel implement all their demands with regards to Palestine.

But the cycle that continues has to be broken and at the very least the international community will view Israel in a different light and all work together to stop Hamas in the long run....also the groundswell of support for Hamas would be stopped if the Palestinians had something to work towards.

As a bystander watching events unfold in the Muslim world of extremism it's very difficult to get a handle on the reasons why some radical organisations are hell bent on the destruction of others (The Afghan bomb killing 80+ people in a marketplace two days ago is an example).

It leaves me thinking is it the way it's being reported to me or is the Muslim world of death just a media created agenda?

Please excuse the naivety of a Manc in his living room commenting on wider world issues.

That's a very pertinent and astute post. The only thing I'd take issue with is that the Israeli leadership care less about how the international community view them than how they are viewed domestically. Netanyahu is being criticised by his right wing cabinet members for being too soft, not too tough. Given the fragile nature of Israeli coalitions, their support is more important to him if he wants to remain in power than Britain or France thinking what a jolly good chap he is.

The other point, about the nature of the media, is an interesting one. I think it's a bit of both. You hear about Sunni atrocities aimed at Shias but often don't get the full picture and context of how Shias may have done to the Sunnis something similar to what Israel has done to the Palestinians. Marginalise them economically and socially, demonise them and subject them to repression. There is certainly an element in the Muslim world that is simply hell bent on the destruction of others, even other Muslims. We've seen that here, with the 7/7 bombings and the murder of Lee Rigby.

But what you don't often see is the acts of kindness and co-operation between communities. Bradford Muslims paid for a synagogue to be restored. A synagogue in South Manchester invited Muslims to break their Ramadan fast one evening. There's a Jewish City fan called Heather Fletcher who is secretary of the Greater Manchester Muslim Jewish Forum, which does some great work. The focus of the GMMJF is what unites the two religions and communities (quite a lot of things surprisingly) rather than what divides them.

The solution in all these things is for decent people to stand up against the extremists but sadly it's usually the ones who shout the loudest who prevail.

Fair points PB.

With regards to international extremist Islamic terrorism, I have always felt that unless and until the Palestine situation is resolved, with the West being seen to be even handed, the situation in Palestine is a perfect recruiting tool for the extremists. Extremist organisations can turn to their support base and say "look, the West is doing nothing to protect our Palestinian brothers, and continues to turn a blind eye to Israeli brutality". At the same time they can point to innumerable examples of western intervention in predominantly Muslim quarters. It is this ability to highlight perceived injustices, aided by the West's continued lack of intervention in Palestine, that garners support for extremist organisations.

Until the West are seen to be even handed in the Israel-Palestine dispute we will see continued and increasing support for extremist Islamic groups.

 

[Crab Paste!]

I don't want my earlier post to come across as defending Hamas, as someone with far left political views I find them every bit as abhorrent as Tories or Ukips (I wouldn't want to be branded as one of PBs 'fucking Hamas sympathisers').

It is the civilian population of Gaza (over 50% of which are children!) who need our support, sympathy, and indignant anger right now.

In early 2011 I read a statement from a group called Gazan Youth, it is very powerful and sums up the thoughts and feelings of the majority of Gazans.

I have reproduced it below.


"Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel. Fuck Fatah. Fuck UN. Fuck UNWRA. Fuck USA! We, the youth in Gaza, are so fed up with Israel, Hamas, the occupation, the violations of human rights and the indifference of the international community!

"We want to scream and break this wall of silence, injustice and indifference like the Israeli F16s breaking the wall of sound; scream with all the power in our souls in order to release this immense frustration that consumes us because of this fucking situation we live in...

"We are sick of being caught in this political struggle; sick of coal-dark nights with airplanes circling above our homes; sick of innocent farmers getting shot in the buffer zone because they are taking care of their lands; sick of bearded guys walking around with their guns abusing their power, beating up or incarcerating young people demonstrating for what they believe in; sick of the wall of shame that separates us from the rest of our country and keeps us imprisoned in a stamp-sized piece of land; sick of being portrayed as terrorists, home-made fanatics with explosives in our pockets and evil in our eyes; sick of the indifference we meet from the international community, the so-called experts in expressing concerns and drafting resolutions but cowards in enforcing anything they agree on; we are sick and tired of living a shitty life, being kept in jail by Israel, beaten up by Hamas and completely ignored by the rest of the world.

"There is a revolution growing inside of us, an immense dissatisfaction and frustration that will destroy us unless we find a way of channeling this energy into something that can challenge the status quo and give us some kind of hope.

"We barely survived the Operation Cast Lead, where Israel very effectively bombed the shit out of us, destroying thousands of homes and even more lives and dreams. During the war we got the unmistakable feeling that Israel wanted to erase us from the face of the Earth. During the last years, Hamas has been doing all they can to control our thoughts, behaviour and aspirations. Here in Gaza we are scared of being incarcerated, interrogated, hit, tortured, bombed, killed. We cannot move as we want, say what we want, do what we want.

"ENOUGH! Enough pain, enough tears, enough suffering, enough control, limitations, unjust justifications, terror, torture, excuses, bombings, sleepless nights, dead civilians, black memories, bleak future, heart-aching present, disturbed politics, fanatic politicians, religious bullshit, enough incarceration! WE SAY STOP! This is not the future we want! We want to be free. We want to be able to live a normal life. We want peace. Is that too much to ask?"

Gaza Youths Manifesto for Change

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

This. PB talks about Hamas as being an homogenous group: the political leadership (the ones who agreed today's UN-mediated ceasefire) say and everyone else follows. I'm not convinced the leadership have that level of control.

Good point. I understand that Hamas is not a homogeneous group. There's a mainstream political part, an official military wing and other military elements that the centre may have little or no control over. You could compare this to Ireland (with Sinn Fein, the Official IRA, the Provos and the more extreme groups/rejectionist groups that emerged) or pre-1948 Palestine, where the Jewish Agency was the political entity, Haganah the military wing over which the JA had full control, Irgun, which was a significant movement that split from Haganah, over which the JA & Haganah had a little influence, and Lehi, over which they had none. Interestingly, the JA/Haganah often tipped off the British about the more extreme bits and were quite ruthless in disbanding them after 1948.

But I'd also make the point that people talk about Zionists as a homogeneous group, which is also quite wrong. There are many strands of Zionism, covering socialist, secularist, religious all the way up to the most extreme nationalistic elements, which were formed from the Revisionist movement. This was never a part of the mainstream Zionist grouping. There are even Green Zionists and my own cousin runs one of the biggest Jewish environmental groups, based in the USA.

Also have to say that this thread has gone from being a pretty febrile one to a level that makes me proud to be a Bluemooner. Although that might have something to do with the fact that Barker has been conspicuous by his absence. Well done to all involved.

 

[The Flash]

Also have to say that this thread has gone from being a pretty febrile one to a level that makes me proud to be a Bluemooner. Although that might have something to do with the fact that Barker has been conspicuous by his absence. Well done to all involved.

This has definitely helped.

And I'm referring to them as "Barking" from now on.

Well said, PB.

 

[No6]

I don't want my earlier post to come across as defending Hamas, as someone with far left political views I find them every bit as abhorrent as Tories or Ukips (I wouldn't want to be branded as one of PBs 'fucking Hamas sympathisers').

It is the civilian population of Gaza (over 50% of which are children!) who need our support, sympathy, and indignant anger right now.

In early 2011 I read a statement from a group called Gazan Youth, it is very powerful and sums up the thoughts and feelings of the majority of Gazans.

I have reproduced it below.


"Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel. Fuck Fatah. Fuck UN. Fuck UNWRA. Fuck USA! We, the youth in Gaza, are so fed up with Israel, Hamas, the occupation, the violations of human rights and the indifference of the international community!

"We want to scream and break this wall of silence, injustice and indifference like the Israeli F16s breaking the wall of sound; scream with all the power in our souls in order to release this immense frustration that consumes us because of this fucking situation we live in...

"We are sick of being caught in this political struggle; sick of coal-dark nights with airplanes circling above our homes; sick of innocent farmers getting shot in the buffer zone because they are taking care of their lands; sick of bearded guys walking around with their guns abusing their power, beating up or incarcerating young people demonstrating for what they believe in; sick of the wall of shame that separates us from the rest of our country and keeps us imprisoned in a stamp-sized piece of land; sick of being portrayed as terrorists, home-made fanatics with explosives in our pockets and evil in our eyes; sick of the indifference we meet from the international community, the so-called experts in expressing concerns and drafting resolutions but cowards in enforcing anything they agree on; we are sick and tired of living a shitty life, being kept in jail by Israel, beaten up by Hamas and completely ignored by the rest of the world.

"There is a revolution growing inside of us, an immense dissatisfaction and frustration that will destroy us unless we find a way of channeling this energy into something that can challenge the status quo and give us some kind of hope.

"We barely survived the Operation Cast Lead, where Israel very effectively bombed the shit out of us, destroying thousands of homes and even more lives and dreams. During the war we got the unmistakable feeling that Israel wanted to erase us from the face of the Earth. During the last years, Hamas has been doing all they can to control our thoughts, behaviour and aspirations. Here in Gaza we are scared of being incarcerated, interrogated, hit, tortured, bombed, killed. We cannot move as we want, say what we want, do what we want.

"ENOUGH! Enough pain, enough tears, enough suffering, enough control, limitations, unjust justifications, terror, torture, excuses, bombings, sleepless nights, dead civilians, black memories, bleak future, heart-aching present, disturbed politics, fanatic politicians, religious bullshit, enough incarceration! WE SAY STOP! This is not the future we want! We want to be free. We want to be able to live a normal life. We want peace. Is that too much to ask?"

It is the civilian population of Gaza (over 50% of which are children!) who need our support, sympathy, and indignant anger right now.

Amen.

I really don't think there is anything more that is needed to say. These kids are human beings with dreams and aspirations like those of our own kids. For fuck's sake people, it really is this simple.

PLEASE help them, for if we don't we'll have lost another generation to this conflict and with each passing generation the hatred, lies and murder becomes ever more entrenched.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Also have to say that this thread has gone from being a pretty febrile one to a level that makes me proud to be a Bluemooner. Although that might have something to do with the fact that Barker has been conspicuous by his absence. Well done to all involved.

This has definitely helped.

And I'm referring to them as "Barking" from now on.

Well said, PB.

I think someone took him out with a surgical strike! It was a joint effort between the IDF and the military wing of Hamas.

 

[metalblue]

I don't want my earlier post to come across as defending Hamas, as someone with far left political views I find them every bit as abhorrent as Tories or Ukips (I wouldn't want to be branded as one of PBs 'fucking Hamas sympathisers').

Only on BM can someone compare Hamas to the Tories.

 

[BlueBearBoots]

excellent post Crabpaste. I cant imagine the stress and horror of living under such conditions 24/7