Pep's tactics

Status
Not open for further replies.
jay_mcfc said:
Couple of very interesting responses to my question about NFL, i.e. he has spent a lot of time in America and he is influenced by basketball. Obviously not a direct link to NFL but still there is enough there. It would take me hours to actually write down what I am thinking but I'd be interested to hear if any other NFL fans can see a correlation.
Click to expand...

I'm a retired football coach and had a short stint in college football. Pep's system does remind me of option football.
 
Zin 'messiah' Zimmer said:
The gospel in coaching stems from vince Lombardi, I'd be amazed if he isn't well versed, regardless of talking about it or not, you can see the many variations in tactics originates in other sports... Phil Jackson talks about the applied methods for the Bulls team of the 80/90s, applying Lombardi methods to the NBA, I'd say it's a fair assumption that most top coaches use his methods!!!
Click to expand...

I know that Lombardi is revered around the world for his motivational skills, for being a perfectionist and expecting nothing but the best from his players. He was also quite brutal when he wanted something, see Pep v Hart. I don't really know how his tactics on the field worked for Lombardi and the Packers but it's obvious that Pep has a lot of similarities to him as a coach.
 
Thaksinssoldier said:
I'm a retired football coach and had a short stint in college football. Pep's system does remind me of option football.
Click to expand...

Exactly this! Where I have seen it was watching Ken Whisenhunt be the offensive coordinator for the Chargers a couple of years ago (I'm sure there are better examples out there but this is what my experience is). Controlling the clock and winning time of possession through constant short gains is the same principal as controlling the ball and possession in football. Both are intended to stop the opposition from scoring by having control of the football and the thing that I keep coming back to creating mis-matches and numerical advantages as the defence has to play for one thing when there are numerous attacking options available. Basically making it impossible for the defence to be able to stop everything.
 
jay_mcfc said:
I know that Lombardi is revered around the world for his motivational skills, for being a perfectionist and expecting nothing but the best from his players. He was also quite brutal when he wanted something, see Pep v Hart. I don't really know how his tactics on the field worked for Lombardi and the Packers but it's obvious that Pep has a lot of similarities to him as a coach.
Click to expand...
If you haven't already you should try and look up the two part special "A football life" about Lombardi. @TCIB may be able to help.
 
If we are talking other sports, it's also motion offense in basketball terms. Clock control, coordinate movement based off of ball location, pass pass pass pass pass until you get the sure thing, then take it.
 
Even taking tactics out of it for a second, Pep has a very American mindset about how a team should behave. He really reminds me of Alabama coach Nick Saban in this regard.
 
Shaelumstash said:
Yes, a perspective team.

Not the definitive team that is going to start every game.

It's a rather antiquated idea - what's your best team? Well, who are we playing, who's available, who's in form, have we got another game in mid-week?

We aren't going to play the same team every week, so if Gundogan or De Bruyne are left out for certain games, there really is no need to get upset.

For the record, when fit I assume Gundogan will be a very important player for us, one of the first names on the team sheet. If we were to play the exact same system as we did on Saturday, and every player was fit, my team would be:

................................GK
.....................Stones.......Kompany
Fernandinho.......................................Clichy
...........................Gundogan
..........De Bruyne........................Silva
Sterling..............................................Sane
............................Aguero

Delph could even get a run ahead of Clichy, who knows. But all of your favourites are included in this team, so there is no cause for alarm.

My post earlier was more to illustrate the shape I'd expect us to line up against a 4231 team rather than my personal preferred 11. But then if you've read the post you'll know that already.
Click to expand...

Mate, you seem far too sensitive on this, it's ok to admit an error of Judgment..

I'd say you invariably know your football so being worlds apart on fanboy status, isn't going to mess with my sleep, however, a little presumptuous stating who my 'favs' are when you've done the same with your preferred line up, not necessarily players!!
 
Shaelumstash said:
Forgot about who? Gundogan? I'm pretty sure he's still not fit so not available to play?!

If you look back at my post earlier today I actually said when Gundogan is fit I can see him playing as the pivot and Fernandinho replacing Sagna as a right back dropping in to midfield. He'd be superb in that position and looking at our performance on Saturday, Sagna was the player who looked most unsuited to his role (other than Caballero!).

Oh, and regarding bumped, I can't even comprehend what is going to happen if De Bruyne gets bumped. You and the rest of the fan club are going to have to decide who you fancy more out of Kev and Pep! It's going to be a real 1D Vs Biebs moment! :-)
Click to expand...
Pep bought KDB so I can't see that happening bud.
 
jay_mcfc said:
Couple of very interesting responses to my question about NFL, i.e. he has spent a lot of time in America and he is influenced by basketball. Obviously not a direct link to NFL but still there is enough there. It would take me hours to actually write down what I am thinking but I'd be interested to hear if any other NFL fans can see a correlation.
Click to expand...
I could have sworn I read something about him studying NFL when he went over but google has failed me.
I may have dreamt it
 
jay_mcfc said:
Couple of very interesting responses to my question about NFL, i.e. he has spent a lot of time in America and he is influenced by basketball. Obviously not a direct link to NFL but still there is enough there. It would take me hours to actually write down what I am thinking but I'd be interested to hear if any other NFL fans can see a correlation.
Click to expand...

There's a good Eddie Jones interview too. He went out to learn from Pep in Munich, he couldn't believe the effort the players were putting in for him.
He also tells how Pep told him he looked at Handball & Rugby. They are sports where space and isolation of an opponent are key. He studied them for that very reason. Space creation and isolation.
This would pair up with your thoughts on NFL.

He seems to value stability centrally with less creative/less gifted players/more disciplined players performing the 'defence' and the highly gifted or very quick players getting themselves isolated against the opposition offering the 'offence'. Much like in Rugby or NFL. I'll have to take Pep's word on handball.

There are certainly some strong influences out side of just football.

PEG will offer the strongest players in their best positions playing one way and waiting for mistakes. Guardiola offers so much more. The problems with PEG's system. It has a short life span and a collection of better players in a similar system will normally trump it.

That's why I believe Pep is so much better and his team's flourish or sustain on his departure rather than be ravaged by turmoil.
 
Zin 'messiah' Zimmer said:
Mate, you seem far too sensitive on this, it's ok to admit an error of Judgment..

I'd say you invariably know your football so being worlds apart on fanboy status, isn't going to mess with my sleep, however, a little presumptuous stating who my 'favs' are when you've done the same with your preferred line up, not necessarily players!!
Click to expand...

Not really sure what your angle is here mate? I've said my preferred line up would include Gundogan, Silva and KDB and I've even drawn it out for you.

My earlier line up that didn't include Gundogan, that you've taken exception to, was as an example to an earlier poster about the shape I'd expect us to line up in against teams like the Shite who play 4231 with decent attacking players. Two centre backs with a line of 3 in front of them including two full backs and a holding player playing man to man against their 3 attacking midfielders.

It was about shape, not personnel.

I even started out naming positions "GK" instead of a name, but then I thought fuck it, I'll put players names in as it's easier to visualise. That post was showing an example of shape, not our best starting line-up, happy to clear that up for you :-)
 
SWP's back said:
Pep bought KDB so I can't see that happening bud.
Click to expand...

Yeh he bought Nolito and Sané too, but I don't think they'll start every game either.

De Bruyne is going to be a huge player for us this year, no doubt about that.

But Muller was arguably Bayern's best player last year and Pep bumped him in a Champions League semi final for tactical reasons.

As I said earlier I expect us to play a variety of shapes with a variety of personnel. We won't have a definitive 1-11.

There will probably be a core of 5 or 6 that will start the vast majority of games and I'd expect De Bruyne to be one of them. But I'd be surprised if he starts every single game.
 
schfc6 said:
There's a good Eddie Jones interview too. He went out to learn from Pep in Munich, he couldn't believe the effort the players were putting in for him.
He also tells how Pep told him he looked at Handball & Rugby. They are sports where space and isolation of an opponent are key. He studied them for that very reason. Space creation and isolation.
This would pair up with your thoughts on NFL.

He seems to value stability centrally with less creative/less gifted players/more disciplined players performing the 'defence' and the highly gifted or very quick players getting themselves isolated against the opposition offering the 'offence'. Much like in Rugby or NFL. I'll have to take Pep's word on handball.

There are certainly some strong influences out side of just football.

PEG will offer the strongest players in their best positions playing one way and waiting for mistakes. Guardiola offers so much more. The problems with PEG's system. It has a short life span and a collection of better players in a similar system will normally trump it.

That's why I believe Pep is so much better and his team's flourish or sustain on his departure rather than be ravaged by turmoil.
Click to expand...
There's definitely a huge influence from other sports which is probably what separates him from the rest.

I see things a bit differently about the central players. Take Alonso for example, that guy is incredibly gifted and can play a pass as good as any of the creative players. The way I'm thinking is that he is the QB in an offence that manages the game, ie short pass for minimal gain until the match up that the offence wanted is available, then they take the big shot. The main skills of this player are composure, passing ability and also intelligence and being able to quickly read the defence and pick the right pass in a split second. That's what reminds me of the way certain QB's read the game. From Saturday this role is for Fernandinho at the moment but he's not really that guy long term because he isn't quite the player to play that position and his engine would be wasted. I reckon a much younger, more motivated Yaya could do the passing and mental side of it but he's not disciplined enough to take in a role like that. He likes the glory a bit too much.
 
jay_mcfc said:
There's definitely a huge influence from other sports which is probably what separates him from the rest.

I see things a bit differently about the central players. Take Alonso for example, that guy is incredibly gifted and can play a pass as good as any of the creative players. The way I'm thinking is that he is the QB in an offence that manages the game, ie short pass for minimal gain until the match up that the offence wanted is available, then they take the big shot. The main skills of this player are composure, passing ability and also intelligence and being able to quickly read the defence and pick the right pass in a split second. That's what reminds me of the way certain QB's read the game. From Saturday this role is for Fernandinho at the moment but he's not really that guy long term because he isn't quite the player to play that position and his engine would be wasted. I reckon a much younger, more motivated Yaya could do the passing and mental side of it but he's not disciplined enough to take in a role like that. He likes the glory a bit too much.
Click to expand...

It didn't mean it like that. Less gifted would be your Clichy/Sagna. Less creative would be Fernandinho. Not saying Fernandinho isn't creative. Just less creative than Silva/De Bruyne.

Someone like Alonso would come under more disaplined. I think Gundogan will be like a hybrid of Busquests and Alonso. Great passing range yet dynamic.

Alonso in some of the big games against powerful sides Alonso was a liability. Madrid a couple of times, Juve. Even us to an extent.

To stick with NFL I think Pep sees Gundogan as more of a Cam Newton than a older Brett Farve.

From what I've seen, I think Pep sees the Prem as a different animal to Spain or Germany. Using a combination of both Bayern and Barca to create a Prem hardy side.

At Barcelona, he used over lapping full backs and central creativity/play dictation. He often defended with just three. This would be murdered in the Prem.
At Bayern, he used inverted full backs. Two solid centre mids a floating Muller, a traditional striker and quick wingers offering wingers.

At City, it looks like he'll utilise the inverted full backs with one holding/QB type player centrally to offer stability. A creative two in front. Wide pace and directness and a striker.

If you lined up his previous two sides in our formation as it looks. . (No Messi as he's non comparable).

............GK..........
...Pique..Boateng...
Lahm.............Alaba
..........Vidal.........
...Xavi.....Inesta.....
Costa..............Robben
.....Lewondowski


...............GK........
.........Stones..VK.........
Fernandinho........Clichy
...........Gundogan.......
.......Silva.....De Bruyne
Sterling..................Sane
....... Sergio
 
Shaelumstash said:
Yeh he bought Nolito and Sané too, but I don't think they'll start every game either.

De Bruyne is going to be a huge player for us this year, no doubt about that.

But Muller was arguably Bayern's best player last year and Pep bumped him in a Champions League semi final for tactical reasons.

As I said earlier I expect us to play a variety of shapes with a variety of personnel. We won't have a definitive 1-11.

There will probably be a core of 5 or 6 that will start the vast majority of games and I'd expect De Bruyne to be one of them. But I'd be surprised if he starts every single game.
Click to expand...
As sorry. Wires crossed, "bumped" for me means sold or left out in the cold.

I agree KDB won't start every game.
 
schfc6 said:
It didn't mean it like that. Less gifted would be your Clichy/Sagna. Less creative would be Fernandinho. Not saying Fernandinho isn't creative. Just less creative than Silva/De Bruyne.

Someone like Alonso would come under more disaplined. I think Gundogan will be like a hybrid of Busquests and Alonso. Great passing range yet dynamic.

Alonso in some of the big games against powerful sides Alonso was a liability. Madrid a couple of times, Juve. Even us to an extent.

To stick with NFL I think Pep sees Gundogan as more of a Cam Newton than a older Brett Farve.

From what I've seen, I think Pep sees the Prem as a different animal to Spain or Germany. Using a combination of both Bayern and Barca to create a Prem hardy side.

At Barcelona, he used over lapping full backs and central creativity/play dictation. He often defended with just three. This would be murdered in the Prem.
At Bayern, he used inverted full backs. Two solid centre mids a floating Muller, a traditional striker and quick wingers offering wingers.

At City, it looks like he'll utilise the inverted full backs with one holding/QB type player centrally to offer stability. A creative two in front. Wide pace and directness and a striker.

If you lined up his previous two sides in our formation as it looks. . (No Messi as he's non comparable).

............GK..........
...Pique..Boateng...
Lahm.............Alaba
..........Vidal.........
...Xavi.....Inesta.....
Costa..............Robben
.....Lewondowski


...............GK........
.........Stones..VK.........
Fernandinho........Clichy
...........Gundogan.......
.......Silva.....De Bruyne
Sterling..................Sane
....... Sergio
Click to expand...


Good post. I really like Fernandinho in that position, reckon it gets the best out of his abilities. Also, on Saturday Sagna was playing off Aguero for a substantial period of time in the second half and whilst I like the inventiveness and the movement of that, Sagna just isn't the player to do it. Fernandinho could offer that as a part of playing in that position, he is very versatile and can do any number of roles.
 
Fantastic mixture of passing, movement and workrate from our lads tonight which was shown in glimpses on saturday. Exciting times, it just seems to get better
but can I dream some more?

...............Bravo?......................
.........Stones...... Bonucci?.........
Fernandinho...Kroos?..Gundogan
.........................................
.............KDB..........Silva...........
Sterling.........................Nolito
.................Aguero..................

Inverted fullbacks Ferna and Gundo!

Bravo / Hart/Cab?
Fernandinho / Maffeo / Sag
Stones / Kompany
Bonucci / Otamendi
Gundogan / Kolarov/Angelino
Kroos / A Garcia ( Maybe busquets instead of Kroos, would prefer Kroos, both class)
KDB / Zinchenko
Silva / Brahim
Sterling / Sane
Nolito / Gabriel Jesus
Aguero / Kelechi
 
this system just gives so many options and best thing is its not predictable, teams will have a hard time working us out in the league
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top