PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

[Chappie]

I think we know Carragher is incredibly ignorant, pretty stupid and happy to see anything negative in relation to City. He’s a dreadful pundit, offers little insight because he simply can’t see through his bias and bitterness.

But has an audience with a lower iq than himself

 

[dadnlad]

I think we know Carragher is incredibly ignorant, pretty stupid and happy to see anything negative in relation to City. He’s a dreadful pundit, offers little insight because he simply can’t see through his bias and bitterness.

he's worse now than before the horrible bastard spate at that girl over football
i want anyone to win anything just so liverpool win fuck all

 

[bluemonkey71]

FFS. Now you've done it! He's told the DWP he's unemployed so has to claim Universal Credit.

Haha. I'd expect his net worth is not to be scoffed at

 

[Stoned Rose]

I understood the goal they were aiming for; ensure the community entities like a football club were protected from reckless ownership. It makes sense to have rules to prevent an owner gambling the club's future on expensive transfers. A good comparison is us and Leeds in the 2000s. They spent their Champions League money on players, we did up our stadium. They didn't recruit well, league performance suffered and they tumbled down the leagues, ruining themselves financially for years.

Look at what's happened at Bury, Portsmouth, Brighton, Leicester. They were ran by cowboys and it was the fans, the non-football staff, that paid the biggest penalty. Managers and players move on, but people were losing their jobs because some dickhead owner couldn't balance the books properly. Everton have broken the rules and they should be punished, and if it wasn't for petty partisan rivalry I'd think 10pts is harsh because at the end of the day it's not the owners who'll suffer despite it being wholly their fault. But... y'know Scouse Mackems and all that.

I didn't think Man City were/are doing anything that Man Utd hadn't been doing for decades prior. Yeah, it is a bit like cheating on Football Manager, but given the nature of the headstart Man Utd and Liverpool have, it would take something like that to truly compete with them. They were happy enough to run a club riddled with debt for as long as they could and the minute someone comes along with the financial muscle to compete they throw their toys out of the pram?

There has to be a way to protect community entities, without ringfencing the established elite. I've heard people talk about a salary cap, but that's unworkable. The minute the PL brought that in, players would jump ship to La Liga or where ever else is paying the big bucks. People have talked about ensuring a majority of players must come from a predetermined geographical area, but that's unworkable for London clubs, or clubs without a sufficiently large population base. Take Newcastle for example, there was some kind of youth recruitment rule based on where a kid grew up, 50% of our catchment area was the North Sea.

Dunno what the answer is, but FFP isn't it. It perpetuates the strength of the top clubs and restricts the others.

Better than your work as a weatherman.

 

[moomba]

A good comparison is us and Leeds in the 2000s. They spent their Champions League money on players, we did up our stadium. They didn't recruit well, league performance suffered and they tumbled down the leagues, ruining themselves financially for years.

I'm pretty sure Leeds would have flown through FFP too until they were beyond the point of no return.

Small profit or small losses in the years preceding their problems iirc.

The goal of safeguarding clubs was an admirable one, but as soon as the usual suspects got hold of it, the rules were changed and safeguarding four or five clubs at the top became the only objective.

 

[Stoned Rose]

So who are the accounts to look out for please?

Yours for a start.

 

[Metalartin]

And us
View attachment 100538View attachment 100539

Some of that is confusing and some of that is new to me. I didn't know England's coefficent was reduced to zero.

By league places, I take it they mean qualification to the UEFA Cup by league position. The CL was still only for the champions until 1997/98 with the first expansion. England's coefficient was high enough to allow 2 teams straight from the off. It was expanded again in 1999/00 but England didn't have a coefficient high enough for a 4th spot until 2002/03 , meaning only 3 places until then. So isn't that potentially 3 seasons where English teams could have missed out thanks to Liverpool? Leeds 99/00, Liverpool 00/01 and Leeds again 01/02(at least it wasn't a club I don't dislike that missed out) Yet look at how they still tell it amongst themselves.

I think many modern PL fans have the impression that top 4 was always as big a deal as it has become today. When the reality is, that term only became relevant in the same decade as the City takeover(5 seasons before it).

Spurs only broke into it at around the same time City did as well, that needs pointing out for some. I remember when they were competing with City for their first taste of CL football under Redknapp... They made out they had always been there, saddled with an enormous amount of misplaced entitlement towards City fans in general, in my experience. They were a mid-table club for the majority of the first 13 seasons of the PL era. 2006 was the first time they'd finished higher than 7th place, which was the single highest position they'd managed of the 5 times they'd finished above 10th in that 13 year period. The rest were all between 10th and 15th place. The club who escaped a 12 point deduction from the FA via appeal in the PL era, for no other reason than blaming the old ownership for multiple financial breaches(illegal transfer payments) in the 80s, would do well to remember where THEY came from. Sorry but fuck Spurs and Daniel Levy, had to get that in. :)

 

[cheekybids]

I disagree with that. All of the opinion pieces in the Telegraph from senior writers such as Charles Moore (ex editor of the Telegraph, Sunday Telegraph and the Spectator) are specifically about Abu Dhabi being undemocratic, misogynistic etc and that they would stifle any debate about issues that don't align with AD values.

All very hostile and backed up by very senior Conservatives saying the same. The point being that when push comes to shove all parties will do what they perceive to be in their best interests. So from being courted for investment last week Abu Dhabi and our owner are being vilified this week.

There’s been quite a few hit jobs on Abu Dhabi, the Beeb showing it’s not just the cretins in the sports department that make it up.

'The BBC’s Claim About COP28 Secret Oil Deals Is Deeply Flawed' – Byline Times

The job of journalism is not to reinforce a pre-existing bias, writes Nafeez Ahmed

bylinetimes.com

 

[WRicko]

If we were accused of fraud then the Serious Fraud Office or similar would be investigating this but they aren't. The Premier League have accused us of breaking their own Premier League rules and that's it.

The Premier League cannot investigate crime, it can only report it and refer it to criminal bodies for investigation. However an investigation (not by criminal bodies) has apparently already taken place and the Premier League has charged us so there is no accusation of criminal fraud whatsoever. If there was then we'd be looking at a criminal case and trial but we aren't.

If there is no fraud whatsoever then yes it cannot be worded as such because it would otherwise be libellous to do so.

I am somewhat convinced that this is all
smoke and mirrors because of what you say. Which I already thought.

You are correct in a sense that the Premier League are not accusing us of fraud. They don’t use the words.

You are also correct to say that they would should or would have to report us to someone if they thought we where committing fraud

However the above does not change the fact that inflating revenue hiding costs as we have been accused of for FFP or other reasons (and they are not separate ) is false accounting. The legal experts on here will explain it better than me but my understanding of what they have said is this is a type of fraud. If this cooking the books also lead to a gain however small financial or otherwise this would amount to proper fraud. Could be gain in footballing terms financial gain or even reputational. I think it’s fairly easy to claim it lead to this gain.

So I go back to my point the charges amount to accusations of fraud. Please tell me where I am wrong.

I would like to know where the experts on this forum say I have gone wrong.

The above is why I think it might be smoke and mirrors you don’t in affect accuse someone of fraud without actually coming out and saying it without referring it on to the proper authorities. Unless it’s all made up unless of course something is going on in the background with the police that we do not know about

 

[Metalartin]

I am somewhat convinced that this is all
smoke and mirrors because of the what you say.

You are correct in a sense that the Premier League are not accusing us of fraud.

You are also correct to say that they would should or would have to report us to someone if they thought we where.

However the above does not change the fact that inflating revenue hiding costs as we have been accused of for FFP or other reasons (and they are not separate ) is false accounting. The legal experts on here will explain it better than me but my understanding of what they have said is this is a type of fraud. If this cooking the books also lead to a gain however small financial or otherwise this would amount to proper fraud. Could be gain in footballing terms financial gain or even reputational. I think it’s fairly easy to claim it lead to this gain.

So I go back to my point the charges amount to accusations of fraud. Please tell me where I am wrong.

I would like to know where the experts on this forum say I have gone wrong.

The above is why I think it might be smoke and mirrors you don’t in affect accuse someone of fraud without actually coming out and saying it without referring it on to the proper authorities. Unless it’s all made up unless of course something is going on in the background with the police that we do not know about

I'm not a law expert but I think the answer you'll get is that it comes down to the different levels of satisfaction required for civil law vs criminal law.

The latter requires a much higher standard and they'd need a lot more than some out of context emails to get a case off the ground. However, I'd argue civil law should be off the table because of the nature of what they are accusing City/ADUG/their sponsors of, no matter how they are phrasing it(ie it's too serious to apply civil law standards). That's obviously not a viable argument since it's going to an independent commission and City have already given any possible objections to it via the English courts. Also, would City really prefer it done that way? Given the optics of having some of the parties involved(including Shiekh Mansour himself) being brought before the criminal courts for fraud, even if innocent.

 

[tolmie's hairdoo]

Do you really think the 2nd highest ranking member of the Royal Family of Abu Dhabi would be sentenced to prison in the UK? Not a chance.

Diplomatic immunity for a start ;)

 

[fierydan]

Just looked up what other teams were affected by the ban re: entry to Europe football and these 3 popped up.
Luton, Wimbledon and Coventry.
God knows how many others.

Everton also lost the likes of Lineaker,Steven and Stevens because there was no European competition

 

[tolmie's hairdoo]

It’s all obviously hypothetical, of course, but I don’t think there’s any chance the board would stand down. I do think all hell would break loose with an unequivocal guilty verdict, and the ramifications for the game as a whole would be huge. There’s absolutely no way the likes of Khaldoon would stand down though imo. I genuinely don’t think it’ll come down to that anyway.

Standing down would also be a further admission of guilt in the court of public opinion?

Perhaps rivals would then push for exclusion under the fit and proper persons test, but, as you say mate, the ramifications for the game and, certainly for UK investments would be nuclear.

 

[tolmie's hairdoo]

You can’t say SM won’t endorse those responsible then say Khaldoon will be fine.

Pearce and Khaldoon have UAE status far bigger and much more
important than being involved in City.

City will never accept any judgement against us and Soriano ain’t gonna be a patsy when he knows where all the skeletons are buried.

Sacking any board members is accepting findings.

Only this.

If they found us guilty, the only certainty is mutually assured destruction.

The only question would be how long it takes for the Premier League to blink and normality restored.

 

[LeonardoDaVnci]

I am somewhat convinced that this is all
smoke and mirrors because of the what you say.

You are correct in a sense that the Premier League are not accusing us of fraud.

You are also correct to say that they would should or would have to report us to someone if they thought we where.

However the above does not change the fact that inflating revenue hiding costs as we have been accused of for FFP or other reasons (and they are not separate ) is false accounting. The legal experts on here will explain it better than me but my understanding of what they have said is this is a type of fraud. If this cooking the books also lead to a gain however small financial or otherwise this would amount to proper fraud. Could be gain in footballing terms financial gain or even reputational. I think it’s fairly easy to claim it lead to this gain.

So I go back to my point the charges amount to accusations of fraud. Please tell me where I am wrong.

I would like to know where the experts on this forum say I have gone wrong.

The above is why I think it might be smoke and mirrors you don’t in affect accuse someone of fraud without actually coming out and saying it without referring it on to the proper authorities. Unless it’s all made up unless of course something is going on in the background with the police that we do not know about

If you have time and inclination, you can see the status of all the current SFO cases here:-

Our cases

In this section you can find information about many of our cases.

www.sfo.gov.uk

As a lay person, a stand out feature of all the cases is an individual or group of individuals have gained direct personal wealth from fraudulent activities in which a single identifiable victim was harmed.

I am not qualified to say if there are any commonalities between the current cases and PL v MCFC.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Only this.

If they found us guilty, the only certainty is mutually assured destruction.

Calling @Didsbury Dave to the thread....

 

[Iassel]

It’s all obviously hypothetical, of course, but I don’t think there’s any chance the board would stand down. I do think all hell would break loose with an unequivocal guilty verdict, and the ramifications for the game as a whole would be huge. There’s absolutely no way the likes of Khaldoon would stand down though imo. I genuinely don’t think it’ll come down to that anyway.

If the club were found guilty on all charges - which would need the PL to pull something game changing out of their folders - then it would be incredibly difficult for the executive team to stay on. You’d be talking about one of the UKs biggest frauds in recent history, you don’t just carry on as if nothing happened. There would undoubtedly also be a strong push to disbar SM as an owner.

Now it would take something like extraordinary for the club to be found guilty on all charges, and of course the status of the executive team would then be very low on the list of issues to resolve.

 

[domalino]

If the club were found guilty on all charges - which would need the PL to pull something game changing out of their folders - then it would be incredibly difficult for the executive team to stay on. You’d be talking about one of the UKs biggest frauds in recent history, you don’t just carry on as if nothing happened. There would undoubtedly also be a strong push to disbar SM as an owner.

Now it would take something like extraordinary for the club to be found guilty on all charges, and of course the status of the executive team would then be very low on the list of issues to resolve.

I would be surprised if they were even allowed to stay on the board of a premier league club after defrauding the other member clubs for 15 years.

Presumably there’s a rule somewhere about that.

 

[jimmygrimblesboots]

In the real world of business we have done nothing wrong if Amazon , McDonalds , KFC or any big business wanted to invest another £1 billion to grow their business , who would stop them investing ? Answer , no one , there would be a possibilty of creating jobs and improving the infrastructure it would be welcomed.
But football is different , invest a billion , create a football the club the envy of the world , create jobs , bring the best players and manager to improve the business and as side effect improve the Premier league "brand" by bringing world superstars like Haaland into the UK.
And the reward , 115 charges , the threat of relegation and a media driving a crusade to destroy our club , even someone as stupid as Richard Master's cannot see any benefit of the Premier league relegating our club and removing the jewel in the crown of the league and losing some of the best players in the world.

 

[Ghostofmerlin]

The injection of money into the league from Chelsea and City has made the league much more competitive than the days of Liverpool and Man U domination. The EPL is easily the most interesting significant league.