PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

You have to question why clubs allow Masters to keep doubling down or why they passed APT2 with the final decision on APT1 was still been decided. For one, the decision to rush through ‘tweaks’ on a ‘minor setback’ must have raised an eyebrow or two with the independent panel and may even have helped nudge them into a more damning decision on APT1. When you are awaiting judgement it makes sense not to piss off those doing the judging.

And that brings us to narrative and why this judgement is important for City and 115. With Leicester smacking the PL over its shoddily drafted rules and City doing the same and more, given the rules drafted were unlawful, it paints a picture of organisational incompetence which the panel on the 115 can lean into with greater comfort then would have been the case if the decisions had gone against Leicester and ourselves and the PL had proven itself to be serious and competent.

I wouldn’t say the outcome of 115 is a certainty, but given recent judgments does anyone really think the PL presented a watertight case against City? The club certainly think they didn’t and the panel sitting in judgement will be aware of the narrative surrounding the PL and its now proven inability to draft rules or even act as an impartial regulator. The outright misrepresentation of the APT1 case, acting unreasonably with some clubs, employing ‘sleight of hand’ etc. The panel no matter how qualified, professional and impartial is only human, and it is always easier to go with the narrative than against.
I would have thought the panel will assess it in terms legality rather than "the PL have a poor track record" as fanciful as that is. We all know its true obviously.
 
I don’t want to get involved in the pile on on Stefan in the other thread. Clearly people think he is playing down the result. I am not sure he is for the reason below

I am not clear how much we learned from the announcement the other day re ATP. We knew we had won, we knew the rules had changed and may or may not now be legal.

I don’t think the media are universally saying we smashed the case.

The thing I would like Stefan to answer if the case is as serious as he makes out and I believe him.

Why have HMRC NCA SFO etc haven’t been involved
 
I don’t want to get involved in the pile on on Stefan in the other thread. Clearly people think he is playing down the result. I am not sure he is for the reason below

I am not clear how much we learned from the announcement the other day re ATP. We knew we had won, we knew the rules had changed and may or may not now be legal.

I don’t think the media are universally saying we smashed the case.

The thing I would like Stefan to answer if the case is as serious as he makes out and I believe him.

Why have HMRC NCA SFO etc haven’t been involved
Exactly this I don’t know Stefan but he appears to be an intelligent and successful guy who is a true blue
He is posting on a football forum for free!
his professional opinion and is getting abuse from stupid dickheads
If you don’t like what he posts in good faith just ignore it
Some of the abuse is childish and unnecessary in my opinion
 
Why have HMRC NCA SFO etc haven’t been involved
Why would the PL go to the authorities first? Let's say they did and the feedback was "is this all you have?". That would have taken some of the wind out of their sails so it makes sense to me that they take the allegations to the independent panel first - which requires a balance of probabilities determination rather than the higher level of evidence required in a criminal case.
 
I don’t want to get involved in the pile on on Stefan in the other thread. Clearly people think he is playing down the result. I am not sure he is for the reason below

I am not clear how much we learned from the announcement the other day re ATP. We knew we had won, we knew the rules had changed and may or may not now be legal.

I don’t think the media are universally saying we smashed the case.

The thing I would like Stefan to answer if the case is as serious as he makes out and I believe him.

Why have HMRC NCA SFO etc haven’t been involved
Corpus delicti.

No body of evidence, no crime.
 
Exactly this I don’t know Stefan but he appears to be an intelligent and successful guy who is a true blue
He is posting on a football forum for free!
his professional opinion and is getting abuse from stupid dickheads
If you don’t like what he posts in good faith just ignore it
Some of the abuse is childish and unnecessary in my opinion

Fuck me that's rich.

Apart from that I actually agree with you.
 
Where can I find the FAQ post. Fed up of debating with fuckwits, I’d rather just post the FAQ and educate them.
 
I don’t want to get involved in the pile on on Stefan in the other thread. Clearly people think he is playing down the result. I am not sure he is for the reason below

I am not clear how much we learned from the announcement the other day re ATP. We knew we had won, we knew the rules had changed and may or may not now be legal.

I don’t think the media are universally saying we smashed the case.

The thing I would like Stefan to answer if the case is as serious as he makes out and I believe him.

Why have HMRC NCA SFO etc haven’t been involved
People can disagree with him, absolutely. People who pile in to give him shit are wankers imo. The guy is giving us what he thinks objectively/professionally instead of trying to placate/sugarcoat our viewpoint. People go mad at the cartel media peddling their narrative, demanding facts, when Stefan presents them it should be taken on face value as his opinion and not dismissed because it doesn't align with what we want to hear.

You can't have it both ways
 
pretty much what i was saying to someone yesterday , the red shirts are now being caught in the traps they planted to catch City in

they cant change their rules quick enough to catch City without destroying the premier league itself but City are still viewed as the bad boys
'If you give someone enough rope,eventually they will hang themselves'
 
It's all gone a bit CSI Miami this thread. So the PL now want to access phones,data,computers etc without valid reason. What fucking planet are they on. I have worked in policing for 27 years and it is fucking hard to access someones phone!!!!
Masters is way way out of his depth. The league is corrupt to the core to protect the cartel yet we are sang at, chanted at as being the big bad wolves. Pretty ironic really when it is us as a club trying to expose it. We should be praised not criticised
 
I cant take anything Stefan says seriously. If I am honest I find him depressing. It is nothing personal . He is clearly a highly educated bloke but for me 100% sold his soul to the devil when he started appearing on talksport. As I say nothing personal. He isn't somebody I would love to go for a pint with etc . They say people tend to stick to their own type. I am not the brightest lad in the world but his opinion is clear. He sits right on the fence so he can't be open to criticism post result. Very clever man and clearly highly educated on a lot of legal stuff. Not 1 person knows the result as of yet. It is all opinion.
 
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It's all gone a bit CSI Miami this thread. So the PL now want to access phones,data,computers etc without valid reason. What fucking planet are they on. I have worked in policing for 27 years and it is fucking hard to access someones phone!!!!
Masters is way way out of his depth. The league is corrupt to the core to protect the cartel yet we are sang at, chanted at as being the big bad wolves. Pretty ironic really when it is us as a club trying to expose it. We should be praised not criticised
Fucking dibble
 
I don’t want to get involved in the pile on on Stefan in the other thread. Clearly people think he is playing down the result. I am not sure he is for the reason below

I am not clear how much we learned from the announcement the other day re ATP. We knew we had won, we knew the rules had changed and may or may not now be legal.

I don’t think the media are universally saying we smashed the case.

The thing I would like Stefan to answer if the case is as serious as he makes out and I believe him.

Why have HMRC NCA SFO etc haven’t been involved

Fucking dibble
Wrong. Where did I say I was a cop?
 
Why have HMRC NCA SFO etc haven’t been involved

For what its worth, this is one of my "notes to self'" I wrote a while ago to get my head straight, based on the various contributions on here. I included the part about fraud as you seem to doubt the seriousness of the case. Ignore it and skip to the second part if I am wrong about that. It's long, but you asked .....

"Are these allegations of fraud?

The alleged rule breaches do not specifically refer to fraud or fraudulent behaviour, but it is generally understood that the combination of allegations around filing of accounts that don’t give a true and fair view, disguising equity as sponsorship and acting in bad faith, are effectively an accusation of fraud.

Let’s not forget that, before it was overturned by CAS, UEFA found the club guilty of improperly reporting, in the club’s audited accounts and various financial submissions to them, the source of around GBP 50 million annually by presenting it as income that could legitimately be expended under the FFP rules on transfers and player wages, among other things, when those funds in fact (according to UEFA, constituted owner investment that couldn't be spent on those items under the rules.

That UEFA made such a determination is there in black and white in the CAS award. The club certainly considered that the allegations were tantamount to accusations of fraud: The club said in its submission to CAS:
“The Adjudicatory Chamber found that ADUG entered into “arrangements” and/or a “scheme” to make payments to Etisalat and Etihad that were, in fact, “disguised equity payments”. The true nature of these payments is said to have been deliberately concealed and improperly reported by MCFC under the CLFFPR. These very serious allegations necessarily involve a conspiracy on the part of MCFC, its shareholder and these two sponsors [emphasis in the original]”.

As for UEFA's view on the matter, they stated that MCFC's conduct constituted:
"a series of very serious breaches, over [a four-year period] which were committed intentionally and concealed from the CFCB. The seriousness of these breaches is compounded by (.....) putting forward a case that ADUG know to be misleading.

So they outright accused the club of systematic, dishonest conduct, and of lying about that conduct in an attempt "to circumvent the objectives of [UEFA's FFP] Regulations".

The PL allegations, as far as anyone can judge from information in the public domain, repeated the accusation. In particular, the PL's statement of allegations included:
“In respect of each of Seasons 2009/10 to 2017/18 inclusive, the Premier League Rules applicable in those seasons that required provision by a member club to the Premier League, in the utmost good faith, of accurate financial information that gives a true and fair view of the club’s financial position, in particular with respect to its revenue (including sponsorship revenue)”.

The references in that accusation to the duty to act "in the utmost good faith" and to produce financial information giving a "true and fair view" in addition to the specific mention of "sponsorship revenue" suggests that the PL's charge is exactly the same as UEFA's in this regard. Those formulations really don't lend themselves to any other credible interpretation.

Now, this is good and bad. It is bad for the club, because if the PL can prove the most serious allegations then that is very, very serious and the consequences in terms of sanction will be very severe for the club and, possibly, eventually for the individuals involved. On the other hand, it is good for the club because it raises the level of cogency of the evidence required by the PL to prove their allegations. As discussed previously, there is an acceptance that, generally speaking, people are inherently honest and do not generally engage in fraudulent behaviour and so, to prove such behaviour, the evidence would have to be far more cogent than in proving, for example, a mistake or an omission.

The CAS panel said:
“The panel adheres to the reasoning (.....) that, considering the particularly serious nature of the allegations in the present proceedings, the evidence supporting such allegations must be particularly cogent”.

Again, it is unlikely the PL panel will have had a different view.

If these are allegations of fraud, why hasn’t HMRC and the SFO started an investigation?

The above leads to another point often raised by City fans: if the PL’s allegations effectively represent allegations of fraud, why are authorities such as HMRC and the Serious Fraud Office not investigating the club?

Firstly, this is a civil case concerning breach of the contract between the PL and the club. There are many considerations at play in terms of what criminal investigatory bodies do and don't investigate, of course, but it would be very unusual for (say) the Serious Fraud Office to commence a criminal investigation in a case like this where what is alleged is a breach of the PL’s internal rules. Especially when there has previously been a case before CAS which has rejected the most serious claims because there was no evidence of any wrong-doing. I would hope HMRC and the SFO have better things to do than launch investigations on a whim. Both organisations can effectively just sit back and wait for the PL to do their preliminary work for them.

If none of the most serious allegations are proven to the standard required in a civil case it would be impossible to meet the standard of proof in a criminal case, which is much higher, of course (beyond a reasonable doubt).

If any of the most serious charges are proven, it is quite possible that a criminal investigation would be launched. Given how high-profile this case is, one can imagine a scenario where it would be difficult for the SFO to resist the pressure to launch such an investigation. However, the standard of proof in a criminal case and the age of some of the charges mean that it would be very difficult to persuade a jury that the accounts signed off up to 16 years ago were knowingly and fraudulently mis-stated. Moreover, if the PL were able to prove their most serious allegations it is almost inevitable that there would be an appeal, which would mean that the events in question would be even more historic. You can never say never in legal matters, but criminal charges seem very, very unlikely even if the PL allegations are successful. Which, as I have stated many times before for the many reasons set out here, I don't think there is the slightest likelihood they will be."



I am no lawyer and this includes just a little original thought, most having been summarised from people better qualified on here. But I think it sums up the discussions of knowledgeable posters reasonably well. I'm not really interested in a debate about the content. If you disagree with anything, knock yourself out.
 
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