"I suppose it's all about opinions but saying lloris is better than joe is akin to saying mark noble is better than yaya"
It really isn't.
I get what you're saying about the reactionaries, but I've been of this opinion for a long time. I rate Joe, I just think he's the weakness link, along with left back, of what is a very, very strong squad.
I think his biggest weaknesses: his temperament and concentration, his distribution and kicking/passing, don't lend themselves well to a side like ours.
Those are precisely the areas in which we need a goalkeeper to be strongest in.
We dominate possession every week, and limit the opposition's chances. A goalkeeper in our side will rarely be tested, but he has to be switched on at all times to ensure that he's ready when he is. We play with a high line and we need someone who can read the game well and quickly, and isn't prone to being rash when a diagonal ball comes over the top. A cool head.
We need someone who's comfortable receiving the ball to feet and playing it out of the back, we need someone who helps us retain possession.
Those are all things Joe isn't good at.
Prior to last season, for a couple of years Joe greatest strength, his shot stopping, wasn't even there. And ultimately, that made him a bang average goalkeeper. That's his greatest strength, and when you take that away he is completely average. He was a liability at times during that period and cost us points.
Thankfully, he improved last season and maintained a good consistency of performances.
But the flaws were still there. They are still there now.
I'd even argue we'd be a better side for having a better all round keeper than Joe, someone like Lloris, who there isn't much between in terms of shot stopping and when Joe's on form he clearly edges it, but to concede that slight inferiority for an overall improvement would make us a better side.
Joe's a very good keeper, but I think his weaknesses are more glaring in a side like ours, and I think we aren't best suited to each other (from a strictly football perspective of course).
I think if Guardiola does arrive next summer, this will be the very first position he looks at, and Joe would be very vulnerable to being replaced. Precisely because of what I've mentioned previously.
Guardiola will be ruthless, he'll have a stronger mandate than Pellegrini and will ignore any sentiment. His brief will be to get the very best out of us as a side, and I think Joe would be the first casualty to be honest.
There's no way in a million years a manager like Guardiola would accept a goalkeeper with such weaknesses in his side, irrespective of how great his strength is on his day.
I think it's the next step to our evolution as a side, personally.
I really hope Guardiola does arrive because there would be other areas to work on, and I'd be fascinated to see what he did with our side and how he would mould it into a successful team in his vision.
Pretty much spot on. In fact I will go further - when making one-to-one saves there are non better.Do you remember when Joe played in an inferior side for Birmingham and he looked a world beater? Do you remember the CL games where we got fucking bombarded and would have been totally embarrassed about 16-0 by Barca if it weren't for Joe? This same shit always comes up when a keeper is busy and making a lot of saves suddenly they are the best thing since sliced bread. Lloris looks good cos he has to make a lot of saves, De Gea looks good cos the rags defence is shit and he had to make a lot of saves last season, Butland is being hyped up cos Stokes defence is shit and he's having to make a lot of saves.
I have no delusions that Joe is one of the best keepers in the world, he isn't but every fucking year he gets the same unfair criticism by fans on here who suddenly have picked up their goalkeeping coaching badges and can't wait to list his "weaknesses" and list keepers who are better than him etc etc. The grass is not always greener and I guarantee you if we didn't have Joe and he was playing for say Stoke or Spurs we would have a massive thread in the Transfer Forum begging Txiki to sign him.
Just wow. If you think Lloris is = or > Joe, many, including me would say your barking mad. Iv'e criticised Joe in the past, but he is far better than you are giving him credit for, and certainly better than Lloris (IMO).
Pretty much spot on. In fact I will go further - when making one-to-one saves there are non better.
Too many think football is like selecting a team under FIFA 14/15/16. Well it isn't.
"I suppose it's all about opinions but saying lloris is better than joe is akin to saying mark noble is better than yaya"
It really isn't.
I get what you're saying about the reactionaries, but I've been of this opinion for a long time. I rate Joe, I just think he's the weakness link, along with left back, of what is a very, very strong squad.
I think his biggest weaknesses: his temperament and concentration, his distribution and kicking/passing, don't lend themselves well to a side like ours.
Those are precisely the areas in which we need a goalkeeper to be strongest in.
We dominate possession every week, and limit the opposition's chances. A goalkeeper in our side will rarely be tested, but he has to be switched on at all times to ensure that he's ready when he is. We play with a high line and we need someone who can read the game well and quickly, and isn't prone to being rash when a diagonal ball comes over the top. A cool head.
We need someone who's comfortable receiving the ball to feet and playing it out of the back, we need someone who helps us retain possession.
Those are all things Joe isn't good at.
Prior to last season, for a couple of years Joe greatest strength, his shot stopping, wasn't even there. And ultimately, that made him a bang average goalkeeper. That's his greatest strength, and when you take that away he is completely average. He was a liability at times during that period and cost us points.
Thankfully, he improved last season and maintained a good consistency of performances.
But the flaws were still there. They are still there now.
I'd even argue we'd be a better side for having a better all round keeper than Joe, someone like Lloris, who there isn't much between in terms of shot stopping and when Joe's on form he clearly edges it, but to concede that slight inferiority for an overall improvement would make us a better side.
Joe's a very good keeper, but I think his weaknesses are more glaring in a side like ours, and I think we aren't best suited to each other (from a strictly football perspective of course).
I think if Guardiola does arrive next summer, this will be the very first position he looks at, and Joe would be very vulnerable to being replaced. Precisely because of what I've mentioned previously.
Guardiola will be ruthless, he'll have a stronger mandate than Pellegrini and will ignore any sentiment. His brief will be to get the very best out of us as a side, and I think Joe would be the first casualty to be honest.
There's no way in a million years a manager like Guardiola would accept a goalkeeper with such weaknesses in his side, irrespective of how great his strength is on his day.
I think it's the next step to our evolution as a side, personally.
I really hope Guardiola does arrive because there would be other areas to work on, and I'd be fascinated to see what he did with our side and how he would mould it into a successful team in his vision.
Not sure if already mentioned but beaten on his left side again, definitely his weak spot. Did make up for it though with a couple of great saves.
Do you remember when Joe played in an inferior side for Birmingham and he looked a world beater? Do you remember the CL games where we got fucking bombarded and would have been totally embarrassed about 16-0 by Barca if it weren't for Joe? This same shit always comes up when a keeper is busy and making a lot of saves suddenly they are the best thing since sliced bread. Lloris looks good cos he has to make a lot of saves, De Gea looks good cos the rags defence is shit and he had to make a lot of saves last season, Butland is being hyped up cos Stokes defence is shit and he's having to make a lot of saves.
I have no delusions that Joe is one of the best keepers in the world, he isn't but every fucking year he gets the same unfair criticism by fans on here who suddenly have picked up their goalkeeping coaching badges and can't wait to list his "weaknesses" and list keepers who are better than him etc etc. The grass is not always greener and I guarantee you if we didn't have Joe and he was playing for say Stoke or Spurs we would have a massive thread in the Transfer Forum begging Txiki to sign him.
"Do you remember when Joe played in an inferior side for Birmingham and he looked a world beater? "
I do mate, I remember that he was worked often, and his shot stopping (his biggest strength) was able to come to the fore given he played in a side with a poor defence and he had to be called upon often.
I remember that he had something to prove having been sent out on loan because Hughes signed Given. He was trying to force his way into contention for England, he still had everything to prove. He then put in a MoTM performance against Spurs at WHL on the opening day of the 2010/11 season. He'd nailed down the number one berth here, and made it his own.
Around the same time, David James retired from England duty and Hart became the undisputed number one for England.
This was Joe at the peak of his powers, young and with the world at his feet, and development/improvement to surely come. His longstanding flaws, which we've mentioned previously, were there, they'd always been there, but this was Joe at his very best.
We thought he'd crack on from there, and become one of the world's very best. That hasn't happened.
He stood still, and actually went backwards for two years.
He has since turned a new leaf and improved his form and consistency, but he hasn't become the keeper we thought he would - we hoped he would. That is mere fact.
But, he is still a good goalkeeper, and on his day, a very good goalkeeper. But he's not a very well rounded one, and I don't think his weaknesses lend themselves well to our game, as I've mentioned previously.
I don't agree that those other goalkeepers look better than they are because they're tested regularly, because I'm not simply measuring them by their ability at shot stopping. And by your own rationale, that's the only reason Joe looked a 'world beater' in his time at Birmingham?
It's a flawed point.
Joe's greatest strength is his instinctive reaction save. His technical side can be hit and miss, his positioning, decision making etc.
Of course this is going to stand out more when he's being peppered with shots as his defence sits deep and tries to absorb pressure.
But that's precisely why he isn't best suited to us now, IMO. We do not play that way.
We play a high line, this requires the goalkeeper to make more decisions off the cuff, when to come and when to stay, this is one of Joe's weaknesses. We also keep a lot of possession, and limit the opposition's chances, this requires a goalkeeper to remain focused in the spells where he isn't called upon, to be ready at a moment's notice. Again, this is another of Joe's weaknesses.
We play possession football, and we need a goalkeeper who's comfortable with the ball at his feet, and distributes it well. Who is calm with it under pressure. This is another of Joe's weaknesses. He's improved in this area recently, but it's still a weakness in comparison to his peers.
That leaves Joe heavily reliant on his shot stopping to justify his status as a top goalkeeper, and our number one. And until last season that wasn't even there.
Thankfully it is there now, and it's bailed us out at times last season, but it's still a concern for me given Joe's shown himself to be unreliable at times. And quite simply, I don't think it's enough to gloss over the other weaknesses in his game.
As I said previously, I think we'd probably be a better side for having a similar, maybe even slightly inferior, shot stopper to Joe, but a better all round goalkeeper.
This is strictly from a football perspective though, I understand why people don't want to hear such things entertained at all, he's the longest serving member of the squad now and most of us see him as one of us.
But I can't see past this area of the squad (as well as left back) as our weak link, I just can't.
I'm going to leave this thread alone now because I couldn't make my position any clearer, and why I feel the way I do. I don't want to dominate the thread with my opinion so I'm going to leave the rest of you to it.
Hart is finally beginning to play it out the back but you can see he's not comfortable with it, it can be very frustrating watching teams like Swansea comfortably play it out from the back whilst Hart lumps it up but hopefully he can improve on this, otherwise solid all round maybe barring decision making.