Political relations between UK-EU

[Deleted member 77198]

The vision is doing quite nicely in 30 European countries. The world does not end at the white cliffs of Dover.

Although there will be a nice new lorry park there so perhaps it does :)

‘All quiet in Dover but up at the white cliffs, residents are “devastated” after Transport minister writes on New Year’s Eve to tell them Govt has purchased farmland for new customs lorry park. Mick Palmer says “country never treated its people worse”

'Betrayed': Dover residents furious over building of Brexit lorry park

Letter from transport minister sent on New Year’s Eve said white cliffs site will be turned into ‘Inland Border Facility’

www.theguardian.com

Is it? There are bubbling issues with Hungary and Poland, who are either potentially planning to also leave the EU or planning to destabilise from within. The major nations of Germany and France don’t care much for the economic plight of the the Med countries who’s economies have been in a right mess for a long time, with the Euro and the EU doing little to get their economies going other than austerity measures (which are a major ideal of the EU). In fact you could argue they’re benefitting from their plight.

Other NATO countries feel the EU core do not pull their weight when they’re needed.

The EU lost grip of who comes into the EU and who crosses borders within the EU a long time ago. People with no documents or false documents from within or coming into to EU, has lead situation where we actually have no idea the entirety of how many people [and who] actually live in this country because free movement was so slack with the EU.

Also countries in the EU who do not work together towards the External Action Service. Individual countries actually guard their security policies between themselves much more than is assumed.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

No one stopping anyone travelling. You can go anywhere in the EU for 90 days in any 180 days. If I want to go to the USA to see my lad, I fill in a Visa Waiver form, pay a few quid and it's approved virtually instantly, lasting me for 2 years. It's not really a hardship. When we played in Moscow, plenty on here got visas.

The issue I have with free movement is economic, not because I don't like foreigners. It's pretty well the same argument Nobel prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz uses in his book on the Euro, though he puts it much more academically rigorously than I do. It's the same principal as in chemical osmosis, when you have two solutions of different density and a porous boundary. The higher density solution migrates to the lower density one until equlibirium is achieved.

People from poorer countries naturally gravitate to richer ones, as we've seen with the influx of Eastern European people from Poland and Romania. Yes, many of them contribute to our economy but they also consume resources, such as accomodation and medical services, which are finite and difficult to scale quickly. The more skilled they are (doctors, engineers, etc) the more they earn in the richer country, which is skills they deprie their home country of, as well as the tax revenue they could have contributed at home.

So the poor countries get propped up financially by those richer ones, as we've seen with the net flow of EU funds from countries like us and Germany to the likes of Poland & Romania. So it's just swings and roundabouts really. If the EU was a level-playing field, with wage levels, tax levels, opportunities & infrastructure all similar across the community, then free movement would be no issue economically. But like those chemical solutions, it isn't. There is no equilibrium. What's the incentive for countries to develop and increase their skills base if those skilled younger people just fuck off somewhere else when it suits them?

So of course people in the UK see free movement of people as a good thing because we essentially attract lots of cheap labour. But that cheap labour here isn't a good thing for the countries the workers have come from. It's one of those great liberal ideas which is the effective replacement for colonialism, except we're taking the skills from these countries rather than the raw materials.

I realise you are talking specifically about FOM, but if you are using an osmosis analogy and from an Irish perspective of EEC and EU membership, I would have immediately thought that the wealth diffuses into the poorer countries.
With Ireland it was immediately evident with the infrastructure projects that opened up the whole country and made investment more attractive and business quicker.
With the likes of Poland now, I think a lot of the money made here by the sizeable Polish community during the boom years found it’s way back to Poland. Many returned with highly successful businesses after the Celtic Tiger years were over.

I think although there is no doubt that Germany and France seem to pull the strings, membership for smaller nations can be of great benefit to them and to all countries within.

Another analogy could be that a rising tide floats all boats. That one may appeal more to those seeking deregulation, also. It is a kind of cover all.
I suppose the devil as they say is in the detail. How you go about rising that tide, does matter.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

This would include a minimum salary requirement of £20,480. The think tank warns that unless the government drops its salary to the national living wage of £19,344, the recruitment crisis in social care would worsen.

I thought that was the whole point. Force employers to pay a decent wage rather than relying on cheap labour from Eastern Europe.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Sooooo

You will be mightily relieved and positive that everything seems to be going smoothly?

I just think both sides are both prepared and capable to enter a blame game in the early days as it will suit them to do so.

 

[blueish swede]

Applicants will require 70 points to apply for a visa in January

When can they play their joker?

 

[Rascal]

Rascal, as usual, just wants entire destruction and us as slaves to the party rather than to private "slave owners" and still refuses to acknowledge the basics of human nature and hierarchy and also the power seeking malevolence of a certain proportion of the population who inevitably, in every structure that tries to put this theory into practice of any sufficient relevant size, ends up in charge and it all goes to shit. That's not a vote winner, and thankfully as the US has shown, that still matters in the end.

Yeah, imagine wanting the whole population to prosper and there be an abundance of wealth to share so everybody does well, nobody starves, nobody is homeless, everyone has a job, the old are respected and treated fairly, the workers are not exploited and get paid a fair days wage for a fair days work. Imagine wanting a health service that is the best in the world with an abundance of Doctors, nurses and beds, treatments available, the disabled treated with dignity, women treated as equals, the young given proper education and good nursery care. A world where we don't send our lads to be killed for imperalistic gain, a police force respected, public services the best they can be.

Imagine wanting all that, I mean i must be insane obviously wanting the best for everyone.

As long as people listen to clowns like Jordan Peterson and buy his psychobabble bullshit it wont happen, as long as Capitalism reigns supreme it wont happen because none of the above is in Capitals interests. It wont happen when people buy into the Macarthyesque scare stories as you do.

I pity your lack of faith in humanity, it must be horrible to be so frightened of your fellow man, or scared he may have something you do not. You are the epitome of why Capitalism has been such a destructive force on human nature and will carry on being a destructive force until it is replaced by something better and more human, that respects people not profit and enhances lives not destroy them.

 

[Rascal]

I have no issue with people stating a vision as Rascal did, some parts of it I agree with, but I‘m not a socialist, I’m for seamless trade across borders to the point they know longer exist for people, goods, capital etc. I don’t agree with raising barriers between countries and people. That is my vision and it pleases me when that vision gets more and more realised in Europe, or between other countries in ever closer agreements.

See Bob, a Democratic Socialist Europe could have frictionless trade on a social market model, rather than a free trade model, where goods and services are traded for the common good and not just for the capitalists profit.

We could even call it that moniker that the more rabid RW brexiteers use on Twitter , the EUSSSR

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

Yeah, imagine wanting the whole population to prosper and there be an abundance of wealth to share so everybody does well, nobody starves, nobody is homeless, everyone has a job, the old are respected and treated fairly, the workers are not exploited and get paid a fair days wage for a fair days work. Imagine wanting a health service that is the best in the world with an abundance of Doctors, nurses and beds, treatments available, the disabled treated with dignity, women treated as equals, the young given proper education and good nursery care. A world where we don't send our lads to be killed for imperalistic gain, a police force respected, public services the best they can be.

Imagine wanting all that, I mean i must be insane obviously wanting the best for everyone.

As long as people listen to clowns like Jordan Peterson and buy his psychobabble bullshit it wont happen, as long as Capitalism reigns supreme it wont happen because none of the above is in Capitals interests. It wont happen when people buy into the Macarthyesque scare stories as you do.

I pity your lack of faith in humanity, it must be horrible to be so frightened of your fellow man, or scared he may have something you do not. You are the epitome of why Capitalism has been such a destructive force on human nature and will carry on being a destructive force until it is replaced by something better and more human, that respects people not profit and enhances lives not destroy them.

just look at the clowns outside St. Thomas Hospital, look at the Soviets, the Chinese etc. etc. etc. I look at the proof of what humanity turns into given half a chance, you hold onto theory from over a century ago that has never truly successfully been put into practice in the way you prescribe.

I pity your refusal to accept the realities of the world in which you live, one where you absolve personal responsibility and seek a mythical control to cure people of things they will do to themselves whatever structure you create. We can share some basic principles, but the execution is different. Given before Starmer you supported a party that began acting against women's rights, it seems a bit rich though. Your rejection of discourse far more intelligent and well read than your own speaks volumes.

 

[Rascal]

just look at the clowns outside St. Thomas Hospital, look at the Soviets, the Chinese etc. etc. etc. I look at the proof of what humanity turns into given half a chance, you hold onto theory from over a century ago that has never truly successfully been put into practice in the way you prescribe.

I pity your refusal to accept the realities of the world in which you live, one where you absolve personal responsibility and seek a mythical control to cure people of things they will do to themselves whatever structure you create. We can share some basic principles, but the execution is different. Given before Starmer you supported a party that began acting against women's rights, it seems a bit rich though. Your rejection of discourse far more intelligent and well read than your own speaks volumes.

Where have i said i want the UK to be like the USSR or China?

I am a Democratic Socialist, I do not like authoritarian states, because i am a Democratic Socialist. The clue is in the word DEMOCRATIC. It is yourself with your reds under the bed Macarthyism who is convinced i am the reincarnation of Stalin.

Honestly my friend you want to put the Jordan Peterson stuff away, the man is a fucking lunatic who was taken to pieces about his views on LW politics by Slavov Zizek and who ran away from confrontation with the Marxist Economist Dr Richard Wolff. He is a charlatan of the highest order who appeals to those with little knowledge about LW politics.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

Where have i said i want the UK to be like the USSR or China?

I am a Democratic Socialist, I do not like authoritarian states, because i am a Democratic Socialist. The clue is in the word DEMOCRATIC. It is yourself with your reds under the bed Macarthyism who is convinced i am the reincarnation of Stalin.

Honestly my friend you want to put the Jordan Peterson stuff away, the man is a fucking lunatic who was taken to pieces about his views on LW politics by Slavov Zizek and who ran away from confrontation with the Marxist Economist Dr Richard Wolff. He is a charlatan of the highest order who appeals to those with little knowledge about LW politics.

you can theoretically be what you want, but practically there's a defined subset of applications which results in authoritarianism. You may not want it, but it's what you would get. Jordan has highlighted and exposed a number of key issues within both the media, politics and the university system and whilst there's plenty to not agree with, there's plenty that has truth to it. I see you dodged the rest of it which doesn't surprise me.