Political relations between UK-EU

[Ban-jani]

It’s not in the least disingenuous to equate free trade with freedom of movement within a single market. In a single market you have four basic tradeable commodities: money you can pay, services you can provide, Labour you can provide or goods you can provide. Within that single market, all of the markets consumers are equally able to trade in all four of those components. The argument that within the single market it was “discriminatory” to allow freedom of movement within single market (ie the EU) was always economically illiterate.


Plainly the situation has changed because we have now left the single market and so movement of Labour within that economic unit no longer concerns us. Rather, it has become an issue of movement of Labour into our economic unit, which we are entitled to control access to just as we can control the provision of goods, services and even capital. It has in other words become an immigration issue though it has not been for almost 30 years. But it’s a bit harsh to say it’s a disingenuous comparison. The disingenuous part was, pre Brexit, to say that FoM was some sort of immigration policy.

I am very much aware of the first bit but you can and nations do have free trade agreements without freedom of movement, it is/was disingenuous to suggest all four freedoms must come as a package, they need not.

That’s what the EU wants and most countries support it but we didn’t.

For other 3 freedoms were worth staying over the 1 freedom I didn’t like from the EU, it’s why I voted remain but don’t like FoM as a policy.

It’s not an immigration policy when you’re a political bloc but that’s the question mark over what the EU is and where it’s heading, isn’t it?

 

[Ban-jani]

No more than showing my ticket to the Somalian ticket collectors at Oxford Road. "Mahadsanid". But if someone's putting me on a drip I'd rather they hadn't learned English just to meet a points total.

If they pass the test and are qualified I couldn’t care less.

 

[Vic]

Learning English?

I think it is perfectly acceptable for anyone coming to learn our language before doing so.

It is paramount to effectively integrate arrivals.

Now, you see, I think that's racist. We'd certainly have had some different monarchs. I bet the Flemish weavers hadn't learnt much English before they arrived. But I hope new immigrants learn not to split infinitives.

 

[Vic]

Talking of immigration, a look at the new rules on refugees. In summary it’s all about the presentation and nothing in the substance.

‘New UK approach to refugees and safe third countries’

Briefing: new UK approach to refugees and safe third countries - Free Movement

The government has introduced important new rules on the handling of claims for asylum with effect from 1 January 2021. Guidance for Home Office asylum

ift.tt

‘The headline is that any person who travelled to the UK through a safe country will have their asylum case declared inadmissible and in theory face removal to any other safe country around the world willing to accept them. The likely reality of what happens in practice is very different: more delays in the asylum process and very few if any third country removals.

My overall impression is that the rules are completely unworkable as they stand, even if there were removal agreements with other countries. Which there are not...’

Is that another international law we're trying to break?

 

[Ban-jani]

Now, you see, I think that's racist. We'd certainly have had some different monarchs. I bet the Flemish weavers hadn't learnt much English before they arrived.

You’ve just said you’d prefer a French nurse than a Somalian one, because the French one had learned English earlier in their life... and you think I am racist for supporting an immigration policy that requires an English test, that anyone can take and pass, from any nationality or colour?

Are you on glue?

Is Canada racist for having the same policy for years?

 

[Chris in London]

I am very much aware of the first bit but you can and nations do have free trade agreements without freedom of movement, it is/was disingenuous to suggest all four freedoms must come as a package, they need not.

That’s what the EU wants and most countries support it but we didn’t.

For other 3 freedoms were worth staying over the 1 freedom I didn’t like from the EU, it’s why I voted remain but don’t like FoM as a policy.

It’s not an immigration policy when you’re a political bloc but that’s the question mark over what the EU is and where it’s heading, isn’t it?

Sure, but that’s why I said ‘in a single market.’ Of course a free trade zone can and usually does exclude Labour movement, just as it normally excludes provision of services. But whilst FoM is not an integral part of any FTZ, it is absolutely integral to any single market.

We spent the best part of forty years moving from a manufacturing economy to a service based economy and have now cut off access in terms of providing services to our most lucrative market. The cost of allowing freedom of movement was so minimal that the government didn’t even introduce the legislation that would have enabled us to deport EU citizens that couldn’t support themselves. The cost of reducing/terminating access to our biggest market dwarfs that.

Go figure.

 

[Ban-jani]

Sure, but that’s why I said ‘in a single market.’ Of course a free trade zone can and usually does exclude Labour movement, just as it normally excludes provision of services. But whilst FoM is not an integral part of any FTZ, it is absolutely integral to any single market.

We spent the best part of forty years moving from a manufacturing economy to a service based economy and have now cut off access in terms of providing services to our most lucrative market. The cost of allowing freedom of movement was so minimal that the government didn’t even introduce the legislation that would have enabled us to deport EU citizens that couldn’t support themselves. The cost of reducing/terminating access to our biggest market dwarfs that.

Go figure.

And that is my reason for remaining.

However much I am against FoM, it was worth it for the prosperity our service industry gave to so many people.

We’ll survive and the country will be fine but I still don’t think it was worth it.

There are some that are needlessly negative though.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

"Welcome to the Brexit."

 

[BobKowalski]

I am very much aware of the first bit but you can and nations do have free trade agreements without freedom of movement, it is/was disingenuous to suggest all four freedoms must come as a package, they need not.

That’s what the EU wants and most countries support it but we didn’t.

For other 3 freedoms were worth staying over the 1 freedom I didn’t like from the EU, it’s why I voted remain but don’t like FoM as a policy.

It’s not an immigration policy when you’re a political bloc but that’s the question mark over what the EU is and where it’s heading, isn’t it?

You need all four freedoms for a Single Market, otherwise it’s not a Single Market and a FTA has nowhere near the same seamless access (as we are finding out) as a Single Market, especially on services because services is people, and FoM is about people.

 

[blueish swede]

I doubt @SWP's back could kill someone when ordering a beer in pigeon Arabic but actually ends up ordering a glass of marbles instead. A nurse on the other hand not having a basic grasp of the language of the country they operate in could be quite dangerous and should be a minimum standard. Which is why it is part of the NNMC’s fitness to practice test (including crazy stuff like qualifications) prior to providing a pin to enable them to work.

Anyone working abroad and not choosing to learn the basics will just end up making life harder on themselves. I can’t describe the troubles I had when I first moved to the USA, I particularly recall one episode when trying to explain that someone was off ill when I said they “were poorly” I then had to explain that they did have enough money to get to work but they were in fact unwell but the damage was done.

I remember asking for a torch once at a customer in SC, "What are you going to do burn the f**k*r down?" came the reply.