Political relations between UK-EU

[Vic]

More fish .....and lies......

Brexit: Boris Johnson's claims about its benefits fact-checked

The prime minister gave examples of the benefits of Brexit for "ordinary voters". How do they stack up?

www.bbc.co.uk

The BBC factcheckers, eh? New BBC Chair (mate of Rushi's) will sort out that department.

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

And what’s happening in NI is exactly why May wouldn’t do what Johnson did.

I mentioned a few times in the previous Brexit Threads....the majority of people in GB really dont consider, nay understand, the implications for us here in NI.

They read something about "stuff" happening in NI, or things "might" happen to NI and they simply dont care, not through malice but because its inconsequential.

Its easy to say you want to maintain the union of 4 countries as you think you are being patriotic or whatever....but the impact on NI has ZERO bearing on the day to day life of people in GB.

Anyone in GB who says they passionately want to keep NI in the Union is lying...or feigning interest....and its usually followed up with "well, if they decide to leave then so be it...id wish them well...the will of the people"....thats a cop out for really not caring and avoiding the difficult decisions.

As someone from a soft-unionist background NI feels like the needy little child demanding attention from its uninterested step-dad.....the will to remain in the UK, from people in NI is much stronger than the will to keep NI in the union from people in GB (does that make sense?)

 

[Vic]

I'm not sure (and can't be bothered to check) what the starting point is for the 25% of fish in UK waters that the EU will have to reduce by, but on the last stats the EU caught (at least) two-thirds of the fish in UK waters (but half by value). If it's tonnage, my maths says they end up with half, and the UK ends up with half.

Then all we need to do is increase the size of the UK fleet by a half, find lots of foreign crews (redundant Dutchmen?), and work out how to land herring in the UK then get them to Holland.

So is it worth buying a trawler ?

You might find the nets cost more than the boat.

Oh, and we can't catch all the fish we want in our waters. Not if you want the Marine Conservation Society label.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I mentioned a few times in the previous Brexit Threads....the majority of people in GB really dont consider, nay understand, the implications for us here in NI.

They read something about "stuff" happening in NI, or things "might" happen to NI and they simply dont care, not through malice but because its inconsequential.

Its easy to say you want to maintain the union of 4 countries as you think you are being patriotic or whatever....but the impact on NI has ZERO bearing on the day to day life of people in GB.

Anyone in GB who says they passionately want to keep NI in the Union is lying...or feigning interest....and its usually followed up with "well, if they decide to leave then so be it...id wish them well...the will of the people"....thats a cop out for really not caring and avoiding the difficult decisions.

As someone from a soft-unionist background NI feels like the needy little child demanding attention from its uninterested step-dad.....the will to remain in the UK, from people in NI is much stronger than the will to keep NI in the union from people in GB (does that make sense?)

It makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[Metal Biker]

I mentioned a few times in the previous Brexit Threads....the majority of people in GB really dont consider, nay understand, the implications for us here in NI.

They read something about "stuff" happening in NI, or things "might" happen to NI and they simply dont care, not through malice but because its inconsequential.

Its easy to say you want to maintain the union of 4 countries as you think you are being patriotic or whatever....but the impact on NI has ZERO bearing on the day to day life of people in GB.

Anyone in GB who says they passionately want to keep NI in the Union is lying...or feigning interest....and its usually followed up with "well, if they decide to leave then so be it...id wish them well...the will of the people"....thats a cop out for really not caring and avoiding the difficult decisions.

As someone from a soft-unionist background NI feels like the needy little child demanding attention from its uninterested step-dad.....the will to remain in the UK, from people in NI is much stronger than the will to keep NI in the union from people in GB (does that make sense?)

I think you'll find that a lot of people in Great Britain these days, especially amongst those i've ever spoken to about the subject, are pretty much resigned on the idea that the fate of Northern Ireland will be decided by the Northern Irish. Not the UK Government and not the British people.

You want to stay in the union, great. You want to leave the union, fair dos. It's really a none issue for many of us. I hate to sound crass but genuinely, we're not really big on the whole "Norvern Ireland is Bri'ish!" mindset anymore. Maybe the over 50's are and a few imperialistic Tories, but not the wider population and definitely not the younger generations.

 

[meltonblue]

I mentioned a few times in the previous Brexit Threads....the majority of people in GB really dont consider, nay understand, the implications for us here in NI.

They read something about "stuff" happening in NI, or things "might" happen to NI and they simply dont care, not through malice but because its inconsequential.

Its easy to say you want to maintain the union of 4 countries as you think you are being patriotic or whatever....but the impact on NI has ZERO bearing on the day to day life of people in GB.

Anyone in GB who says they passionately want to keep NI in the Union is lying...or feigning interest....and its usually followed up with "well, if they decide to leave then so be it...id wish them well...the will of the people"....thats a cop out for really not caring and avoiding the difficult decisions.

As someone from a soft-unionist background NI feels like the needy little child demanding attention from its uninterested step-dad.....the will to remain in the UK, from people in NI is much stronger than the will to keep NI in the union from people in GB (does that make sense?)

I agree with all of that, the only caveat being that not everyone in GB who says they want to keep NI in the union is lying or feigning interest. The vast majority are though.

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

I think you'll find that a lot of people in Great Britain these days, especially amongst those i've ever spoken to about the subject, are pretty much resigned on the idea that the fate of Northern Ireland will be decided by the Northern Irish. Not the UK Government and not the British people.

You want to stay in the union, great. You want to leave the union, fair dos. It's really a none issue for many of us. I hate to sound crass but genuinely, we're not really big on the whole "Norvern Ireland is Bri'ish!" mindset anymore. Maybe the over 50's are and a few imperialistic Tories, but not the wider population and definitely not the younger generations.

That's pretty much what I mean....and coming from a perceived unionist background, growing up in a loyalist area....it's disappointing....and many feel incredibly let down....I see more "Britishness" in Belfast than I do in GB.....cos it's Englishness over there.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I'd honestly say the main reason as a Brit I want to keep NI is it is a symbol of the UK being on the island of Ireland and a permanent reminder to those south of the border of our presence, especially after they felt the need to blow up the Arndale.

What NI actually brings to the UK I don't know, it comes across as "another place" as it rarely seems to make any effort to really sell itself and promote its plus points, whereas the Scots never bloody shut up.

Jaysus!

 

[hilts]

I think you'll find that a lot of people in Great Britain these days, especially amongst those i've ever spoken to about the subject, are pretty much resigned on the idea that the fate of Northern Ireland will be decided by the Northern Irish. Not the UK Government and not the British people.

You want to stay in the union, great. You want to leave the union, fair dos. It's really a none issue for many of us. I hate to sound crass but genuinely, we're not really big on the whole "Norvern Ireland is Bri'ish!" mindset anymore. Maybe the over 50's are and a few imperialistic Tories, but not the wider population and definitely not the younger generations.

Exactly whether someone is from Belfast Burnley Bridgend or Brechin it’s all the same, Each country ultimately has the right to decide its own fate. But while you’re in a union you have to accept what that means. This all seems a bit needy or small brother syndrome to me.

I would imagine the good people of Belfast spend as much time worrying about Burnley folk as Burnley folk worry about the people of Belfast.

 

[hilts]

I'd honestly say the main reason as a Brit I want to keep NI is it is a symbol of the UK being on the island of Ireland and a permanent reminder to those south of the border of our presence, especially after they felt the need to blow up the Arndale.

What NI actually brings to the UK I don't know, it comes across as "another place" as it rarely seems to make any effort to really sell itself and promote its plus points, whereas the Scots never bloody shut up.

Out of order that mate

 

[BobKowalski]

I mentioned a few times in the previous Brexit Threads....the majority of people in GB really dont consider, nay understand, the implications for us here in NI.

They read something about "stuff" happening in NI, or things "might" happen to NI and they simply dont care, not through malice but because its inconsequential.

Its easy to say you want to maintain the union of 4 countries as you think you are being patriotic or whatever....but the impact on NI has ZERO bearing on the day to day life of people in GB.

Anyone in GB who says they passionately want to keep NI in the Union is lying...or feigning interest....and its usually followed up with "well, if they decide to leave then so be it...id wish them well...the will of the people"....thats a cop out for really not caring and avoiding the difficult decisions.

As someone from a soft-unionist background NI feels like the needy little child demanding attention from its uninterested step-dad.....the will to remain in the UK, from people in NI is much stronger than the will to keep NI in the union from people in GB (does that make sense?)

Yeah, it makes sense and if I am being honest it applies to me, I’m in favour of our Union, but I also see the ‘sense’ (not sure that’s the right word) of a united Ireland so maybe I‘m as guilty as the rest of copping out.

I was shocked we sold out NI, though, but more shocked no one noticed or cared. That lack of caring is why I think our Union is ultimately going to fracture. Not because it’s destined to, or people want it, but because no can be arsed to care one way or the other.

 

[blue_paul]

That's pretty much what I mean....and coming from a perceived unionist background, growing up in a loyalist area....it's disappointing....and many feel incredibly let down....I see more "Britishness" in Belfast than I do in GB.....cos it's Englishness over there.

Isn’t it time therefore, for unionism to have a look at some sort of political unity on the Island of Ireland? It’s refreshing to see such clarity on the position of NI within the UK, but what to happen next? Demographics will be against unionism by 2030 or so and Brexit seems to have pissed off a lot of secret catholic unionists.
The non extremist wing of unionism should be talking to Centrist southern parties about an agreed Ireland and what that entails. Especially if the Jocks go Indy, which is starting to look more likely.

 

[hilts]

Yeah, it makes sense and if I am being honest it applies to me, I’m in favour of our Union, but I also see the ‘sense’ (not sure that’s the right word) of a united Ireland so maybe I‘m as guilty as the rest of copping out.

I was shocked we sold out NI, though, but more shocked no one noticed or cared. That lack of caring is why I think our Union is ultimately going to fracture. Not because it’s destined to, or people want it, but because no can be arsed to care one way or the other.

We didn’t sell out Northern Ireland it’s far more complicated than that as you very well know.

 

[BobKowalski]

We didn’t sell out Northern Ireland it’s far more complicated than that as you very well know.

No, it isn’t complicated. We sold out NI.

 

[hilts]

No, it isn’t complicated. We sold out NI.

We can say we did we didn’t all night fella buts there is a game on in a bit although you may not know that:-)

 

[meltonblue]

We didn’t sell out Northern Ireland it’s far more complicated than that as you very well know.

If you’re a unionist, it’s really not. The issue is, like has already been said, either people aren’t unionists or are feigning that they are.

 

[hilts]

If you’re a unionist, it’s really not. The issue is, like has already been said, either people aren’t unionists or are feigning that they are.

They haven’t been sold out. As a Mancunian i may or may not want to be in a union but it’s none of my business whether a Scotsman does or an Irishman does. I don’t live there so cannot make that decision or give an opinion on their behalf.

Unless I’m wrong NI is still part of the Union. They are specific things that apply to NI because of a complicated history that isn’t worth going over. But nobody decided to vote the way they did because they are unmoved by the people of Northern Ireland. Just like the Irish didn’t vote taking into account English folk. It works both ways. You ask everyone the same question and see what the result is.

So much hassle is caused by people labelling themselves and being bothered about which govt shafts them. Tub thumping nationalists or unionists obsessed with lines on maps need to grow up. That applies to everywhere in the world.

If you have self determination in a democracy then use it and decide what is best for you and your countrymen going forward.

If we take the 4 countries of the U.K. and let’s throw in Southern Ireland as well for giggles there is lots of permutations there. Total independence a Union of all those countries, some of those countries, Eu membership. It’s 2020 grow up, make your mind up and get on with it.

 

[blueparrot]

Exactly whether someone is from Belfast Burnley Bridgend or Brechin it’s all the same, Each country ultimately has the right to decide its own fate. But while you’re in a union you have to accept what that means. This all seems a bit needy or small brother syndrome to me.

I would imagine the good people of Belfast spend as much time worrying about Burnley folk as Burnley folk worry about the people of Belfast.

But it isn’t all the same fromBelfast Burnley Bridgend or Brechin the decision to create barriers between N.Ireland and the UK and leave them in the single market wasn’t taken in N.Ireland it was taken in Westminster and imposed.
The same Westminster that refused the other devolved parliaments the right to choose to be allowed to be treated equally and be offered the same settlement as N.Ireland .
That isn’t everbody in the UK being treated equaly and the same as citizens of one United Kingdom.

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

Isn’t it time therefore, for unionism to have a look at some sort of political unity on the Island of Ireland? It’s refreshing to see such clarity on the position of NI within the UK, but what to happen next? Demographics will be against unionism by 2030 or so and Brexit seems to have pissed off a lot of secret catholic unionists.
The non extremist wing of unionism should be talking to Centrist southern parties about an agreed Ireland and what that entails. Especially if the Jocks go Indy, which is starting to look more likely.

Definitely.... As discussed with Eamo before...there won't ever be a pure United Ireland....but a unified island with significant unionist input...although, they won't actually be unionists anymore.

It's this line of thinking that will see the SDLP gain new voters and the "shared island" thing

 

[hilts]

But it isn’t all the same fromBelfast Burnley Bridgend or Brechin the decision to create barriers between N.Ireland and the UK and leave them in the single market wasn’t taken in N.Ireland it was taken in Westminster and imposed.
The same Westminster that refused the other devolved parliaments the right to choose to be allowed to be treated equally and be offered the same settlement as N.Ireland .
That isn’t everbody in the UK being treated equaly and the same as citizens of one United Kingdom.

Quickly as the game is on soon the first part is about a poster moaning about parts of the U.K. being bothered or not about NI, everyone got the vote and people from Belfast weren’t doing moral cartwheels about Lancashire.

The decision was taken in Westminster after long negotiations with the EU and involving a vote by all the U.K.

The govt didn’t just decide to sell out NI, it’s not even a sell out. If you sell out someone there situation becomes worse. Now I don’t think the NI situation will be worse but time will tell. They voted remain and are now in a kind of halfway position. Closer to the EU. So In some ways they have got closer to the result they wanted than others have.

And guess what if they don’t like how it pans out for them they have the power to change it.