Political relations between UK-EU

[Ban-jani]

Let’s be honest the governments points based system might in theory be better and it might in theory be more balanced or less discriminatory than freedom of movement but it’s going to be rubbish the government is in generally incompetent and bigoted

Also governments are incapable of working out how many people will apply to live in a country what points they will get and how many jobs will need filling by people from outside also often the people with the least amount of points end up being the most hardworking or creative and entrepreneurial

You keep asserting that a certain amount of immigration is unsustainable and that freedom of movement resulted in more than that amount. Yet we clearly have lots of space as had been pointed out multiple times and deliberately ignored by you and others and we have lots of vacancies in positions that are hard to fill with native born people this will only be exacerbated by the pandemic as it pushes public sector workers out due to stress and ill health and we demand better public sector services because we finally recognize there importance Is it over 100k in vacancies in both the health and social care.

Give me specific examples of people who have not integrated or what would constitute not integrating odds based on previous debates the people won’t be European and many of the examples will be flawed or bigoted ( Nigel and his doesn’t like listening to foreign languages even tho he had a German wife and kids)

Your criticism of freedom of movement is based on how we implemented it I think had we implement the restrictions we where allowed you wouldn’t have complained it’s why I doubt despite the general bigotry coming out of the government that they will do much to reduce immigration especially when they are desperate to get trade deal which will include increased number of visas for China India Australia Canada New Zealand and America

Generally the tension comes from the people not liking the foreigners not there lack of integration or the numbers it’s also tends to be more about people From outside Europe and people in working class norther towns The places that dislike immigration the most are the places with the least amount of immigration

Immigration / freedom of movement was reducing before we left and was further reduced because we chose to leave fall in exchange worries of being unwelcome we didn’t actually need to leave

Why is the emphasis on freedom of movement always about people coming here what about us going to Europe and missing that

If the government was indeed bigoted then why did they implement an immigration policy that is totally blind to race, nationality, religion, age, sex, whatever...

Surely if, Indian descended, 2nd generation immigrant, Home Secretary Priti Patel, hated certain types of people she would have implemented a system that doesn’t allow certain backgrounds to come?

Your point about them being bigoted doesn’t make any sense. She’s just right wing and is doing what Conservatives have always wanted, a control on numbers coming in - which they won a huge majority promising

This policy will likely make the percentage of people coming less white European.

We have been over the space thing twice now. I am not repeating myself a third time.

On the tensions part...in the words of Jeremy Corbyn “if your community has changed due to mass immigration and you have concerns about it, it doesn’t make you a racist”.

You can scoff at people in working class towns who have experienced this change and laugh at them, but their view is just as valid as yours and their votes outnumbered those you agree with you.

It’s a combination of people entering the EU and gaining a passport and then moving to Britain and people coming directly, because of incompetent governments.

But nevertheless, the tensions we’ve seen arise when it’s a very high number of people in a concentrated area. Which makes integration very difficult.

I couldn’t care less whether someone is coming from Bangladesh or Belgium, so long as they have the skills we need, are law abiding and want to be apart of our society... just so long as the numbers are 10,000’s over 100,000’s.

 

[Ban-jani]

Because they think they still have freedom of movement. Freedom of movement applies to others. They are unable to grasp that other European nationals still have freedom of movement. The only European nationals who no longer have Freedom of movement is the British.

It is British, or English exceptionalism at its finest, leading to an inability to comprehend that the only people they took freedom of movement away from is themselves.

Considering he was replying to me is that what you really think my position is?

I know full well I don’t have freedom of movement anymore and I think Europe would be better for it.

 

[WRicko]

Bob did, on this thread. He wants global freedom of movement and that’s where the discussion began, you entered half way through.

The government might balls it up, but the system they’ve put into place is a better one for the country in my opinion, they might not implement it and put it into practice effectively, but the plan is better.


I have no idea what this means


The beauty of the points system is we can fix it by making sure more doctors and nurses can reach 70pts. I am sure they are already in the “low jobs category” that grants 20, then if they’re qualified it’s another 20, speak English 10 and if the NHS offers jobs to these people that’s 20 again.

It’s incredibly hard to police when people can just enter without applying to come in. Getting those who have been here 6 months without a job is nigh on impossible when EU citizens can just enter on a whim.

They definitely didn’t have the capacity to do that but is true they didn’t want to admit it, because it would prove they didn’t even try.

I don’t think he actually specifically said that but whatever perhaps quote him

Trade deals often require relaxation of visa requirements most notably India and China We stopped the EU getting a deal with India because of fears over too many Indians coming here due to history they where not likely to go to Italy for example. Boris is going in January to get a mini trade deal and it will allow more visas

This will be good economically and it might not be too many for the country economically or socially or from an infrastructure point of view but it won’t go down well with the people who voted Brexit especially a certain section when they find out they have replaced white Christian Europeans with People with other skin colors and religions

I don’t think the government policy is better its hard to split the policy the rhetoric and the implementation they want a points system because of the rhetoric they will set the points system wrong for political ideological rhetorical reason they do not follow evidence as we can see in the pandemic and they are generally bigoted but let’s see

Points based systems don’t work because you can never be sure how many will apply who will apply what jobs you will need. Hence why May didn’t want it bet to try and fill the jobs

The Europeans don’t find it hard to police free movement but then they require registration at local council and ID cards for all

 

[smudgedj]

47% of products imported into UK will now be tariff-free, compared to only 27% under EU’s Common External Tariff (CET).
Average tariffs reduced from 7.2% under CET to 5.7% under UK’s new Global Tariff regime (UKGT)

https://www.stevens-bolton.com/site...anges-to-imports-in-2021-the-uk-global-tariff

 

[bluethrunthru]

I try and ignore utter nonsense put up about Spain, the holiday situation, the residency regulations etc; You can travel, (covid excepted) you can buy property, and you can apply for residency. The residency criteria, meant you
have to provide various checks and proofs, if these are OK,
so are you. They are, or indeed recently were, experiencing a property boom,
these are marketed all over Europe, where I go thousands are being sold, to
many nationalities, I know Americans who have just retired there.

much the same applies to people coming here - you meet certain criteria and you can live here subject to certain rules. Sad that some categorise that as us flexing our sovereignty muscle but when others do it then its fascism - I can see we will all get along swimmingly.

 

[Ban-jani]

I don’t think he actually specifically said that but whatever perhaps quote him

Trade deals often require relaxation of visa requirements most notably India and China We stopped the EU getting a deal with India because of fears over too many Indians coming here due to history they where not likely to go to Italy for example. Boris is going in January to get a mini trade deal and it will allow more visas

This will be good economically and it might not be too many for the country economically or socially or from an infrastructure point of view but it won’t go down well with the people who voted Brexit especially a certain section when they find out they have replaced white Christian Europeans with People with other skin colors and religions

I don’t think the government policy is better its hard to split the policy the rhetoric and the implementation they want a points system because of the rhetoric they will set the points system wrong for political ideological rhetorical reason they do not follow evidence as we can see in the pandemic and they are generally bigoted but let’s see

Points based systems don’t work because you can never be sure how many will apply who will apply what jobs you will need. Hence why May didn’t want it bet to try and fill the jobs

The Europeans don’t find it hard to police free movement but then they require registration at local council and ID cards for all

I’ve spoken to Bob about it many many times, including this week. It is his opinion and he won’t mind me saying it. He is of course welcome to it but I am welcome to disagree.

The visas point isn’t one I agree with, it isn’t necessarily the case, the free trade agreements we’ve already set up don’t have this at all and even if it was, we can alter the immigration policy if that’s the mandate the government had and it’s what the country wanted to do. You see, we now set it ourselves.

The party with the biggest problem with bigotry is Her Majesty’s opposition, we’ve seen that with the antisemitism report, and the evidence for the Tories being so is much more limited and this policy certainly says the opposite.

They have the most diverse Cabinet in our history, so outside of one or two backbenchers, there doesn’t seem to be a major problem.

We do know, because of how many visa applications we’ve always received from outside of the EU, they can measure it.

Points based systems seem to work elsewhere, why not here?

 

[west didsblue]

47% of products imported into UK will now be tariff-free, compared to only 27% under EU’s Common External Tariff (CET).
Average tariffs reduced from 7.2% under CET to 5.7% under UK’s new Global Tariff regime (UKGT)

https://www.stevens-bolton.com/site...anges-to-imports-in-2021-the-uk-global-tariff

Slightly misleading stats. It would appear that the stats exclude the 45% of all imports that come from the EU. In other words we are unilaterally lowering tariffs to much of the rest of the world without necessarily getting anything in return. Not sure that’s quite the “win” for the U.K. that you might imagine if it allows low cost economies to undercut domestic production.

 

[BobKowalski]

47% of products imported into UK will now be tariff-free, compared to only 27% under EU’s Common External Tariff (CET).
Average tariffs reduced from 7.2% under CET to 5.7% under UK’s new Global Tariff regime (UKGT)

https://www.stevens-bolton.com/site...anges-to-imports-in-2021-the-uk-global-tariff

Finally, hard evidence and data, not empty phrases.

Looked through, couldn’t find how this relates to overall trade, ie what percentage in £ of UK imports this applies to, nor can I find what we secured for this reduction in return. Any idea?

Which then brings me to a persistent irritation. This reduction in average tariffs from 7.2% to 5.7% is objectively good news and I assume you believe it to be so, yet you also championed a no deal with the EU which would have seen tariffs being levied. This seems somewhat ‘inconsistent’.

I also assume you are now in favour of the UK keeping in lockstep with the EU on rules and regulations to ensure we do not trigger tariffs on trade with the EU, which would mitigate any reduction in tariffs from elsewhere.

 

[hilts]

I don’t think he actually specifically said that but whatever perhaps quote him

Trade deals often require relaxation of visa requirements most notably India and China We stopped the EU getting a deal with India because of fears over too many Indians coming here due to history they where not likely to go to Italy for example. Boris is going in January to get a mini trade deal and it will allow more visas

This will be good economically and it might not be too many for the country economically or socially or from an infrastructure point of view but it won’t go down well with the people who voted Brexit especially a certain section when they find out they have replaced white Christian Europeans with People with other skin colors and religions

I don’t think the government policy is better its hard to split the policy the rhetoric and the implementation they want a points system because of the rhetoric they will set the points system wrong for political ideological rhetorical reason they do not follow evidence as we can see in the pandemic and they are generally bigoted but let’s see

Points based systems don’t work because you can never be sure how many will apply who will apply what jobs you will need. Hence why May didn’t want it bet to try and fill the jobs

The Europeans don’t find it hard to police free movement but then they require registration at local council and ID cards for all

Whether the new points system brought in by this govt is good average or poor is not relevant to the general concept. Plenty of people think this govt is pretty shit so I wouldn’t be overly positive tbh. However it’s our government that is responsible for implementing it or discarding it at a future point. We could even vote the pillocks out. Fancy that:-)

Moving away from the EU is hopefully the first step, getting rid of the Tories, the Lords and our useless fptp system is the next step. This will be a lot harder to do unfortunately and unless those to the left of the Tories get their act together I won’t live long enough to see it.

 

[BobKowalski]

I’ve spoken to Bob about it many many times, including this week. It is his opinion and he won’t mind me saying it. He is of course welcome to it but I am welcome to disagree.

The visas point isn’t one I agree with, it isn’t necessarily the case, the free trade agreements we’ve already set up don’t have this at all and even if it was, we can alter the immigration policy if that’s the mandate the government had and it’s what the country wanted to do. You see, we now set it ourselves.

The party with the biggest problem with bigotry is Her Majesty’s opposition, we’ve seen that with the antisemitism report, and the evidence for the Tories being so is much more limited and this policy certainly says the opposite.

They have the most diverse Cabinet in our history, so outside of one or two backbenchers, there doesn’t seem to be a major problem.

We do know, because of how many visa applications we’ve always received from outside of the EU, they can measure it.

Points based systems seem to work elsewhere, why not here?

Bob doesn’t think implementing global freedom of movement overnight will happen or be practicable.

I outlined that you start with neigbouring countries, small Unions (like our own), trade blocs like the EU. It’s a process that will take time, the elimination of barriers to people and trade is the goal

That said, Covid may see a shift to regionalism from globalism. Key industries and supply chains housed within regions and within a defined legal jurisdiction, which may in turn accelerate federalism in trade blocs or a quasi federal structure.