Hindsight is a wonderful thing.do you not see though, that toxic debate was pushed by the same people who are now in gov. it didn't become about "winning" because of the debate, they made it about 'winning' and the toxic debate followed. it was essentially turned into a test of patriotism in the eyes of many, which is always dangerous.
as for your points about remain not going along with it, that isn't how democracy works. but it wasn't the remain crowd who stopped the votes on may's deal going through, it was the full on leave lot. and they did it because they knew if may's deal didn't get through, they were in prime position to take over the party. this was always about power, the EU question is somewhat, weirdly, a red herring. i don't believe for one fucking second boris johnson made his mind up the night before he announced, and had two speeches written. bullshit.
anyway.... you are correct that if labour had voted for it, it would have happened, and that would be preferable to now, yes. but labour never wanted this, and under democratic norms are allowed to vote whichever way they choose. they voted because they didn't want it. johnson et al voted the way they did because they wanted control of the party
The EEC was a better option than EFTA, but EFTA is now a better option than nothing.Spot on. The "not what I voted for" lot are less in touch with reality than FBPE.
It was obvious that it would end in a Tory shitfest and the same bankrupt idealogy and economic model would be turned up to 11.
If EFTA was a viable alternative to the EU the UK wouldn't left it to join the EU, and it wouldn't contain only 2 of the 7 founding members.
*ehem*The EEC was a better option than EFTA, but EFTA is now a better option than nothing.
I was saying EFTA was the only alternative in 2016 but not even mentioned on here until 2017 by anyone else/"the experts".
I think you've managed to miss my point completely. It was well within 'remainers' rights to try and stop brexit, especially if they were from the Labour party. They didn't want it, they didn't call the vote, and democracy is not about everyone falling into line. It allows for disagreement, it is why it is has proved to be such a successful form of government. The 'soft brexit' was stopped by the hardcore leave crowd in the conservative party, so blaming this on the people who didn't want brexit at all is a bit of a joke and massive passing the buck.Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
When the "soft leave" option was still gaining traction, many remainers shunned it in favour of stopping brexit altogether, rather than helping to put steam behind it.
How'd that work out for you all? Told you, I gave up trying back in 2018. From that point on it was whatever happens, happens.
And you've missed mine.I think you've managed to miss my point completely. It was well within 'remainers' rights to try and stop brexit, especially if they were from the Labour party. They didn't want it, they didn't call the vote, and democracy is not about everyone falling into line. It allows for disagreement, it is why it is has proved to be such a successful form of government. The 'soft brexit' was stopped by the hardcore leave crowd in the conservative party, so blaming this on the people who didn't want brexit at all is a bit of a joke and massive passing the buck.
How the hell we get out of this mess, I really don't know.
The mess I don't know how to get out of is not Brexit, it's Johnson's government. I'm well aware brexit is now staying. I doubt the EU would want us back anyway and I don't blame them. And I don't see how anyone can lay the blame on something becoming a shit show at the feet of the very people who didn't want it in the first place. We didn't vote to shit our pants. Anyway, I'll give you this, you are consistent in your argument, and you are still on here sticking your neck out, so respect for that. The rest have wilted off into the distance.And you've missed mine.
I'm not "passing the buck"; IMO EVERYONE who was a rabid remainer or hard brexiteer is responsible for how the Tories managed to gain a majority to get their interpretation of leaving the EU over the line. Those who perpetually blame "everyone who voted leave in 2016" as being responsible is wholly unrealistic and inaccurate and are being deliberately disingenuous and revisionist towards what the mood of the nation was like over those 4 years. The 'remoaners' must take some of the responsibility for creating a perception of hostility towards leavers, who would naturally shift towards a hard brexit as a result.
Don't believe me? Look at the 2019 election result. People had had enough of being patronised, insulted and labelled. The moderates, the ones who voted remain but accepted the result or those who voted leave but still wanted to trade, were ignored, shunned and silenced by the "shouty types" who dominated the debate and discussions. We left you guys to it and as it turned out, there were more hard brexiters than stop brexiters.
Soft brexit WAS stopped, by a collaborative effort of the ERG/hard brexit types and the FBPE/Stop brexit types, but it wouldn't have been had the remainers put more effort in backing it, rather than the option they chose, which was "fight to remain" and labelling everyone who voted to leave as someone heinous. Soft brexit never had a chance when that happened.
The fact you say "you don't know how to get out of this mess" just shows you were another who didn't listen to any of the soft brexit options that were being put forward at the time. And as i've stated, i'm passed caring attempting to highlight those options.
People like you caused the animosity that caused people to turn to Johnson's Tories that gave him the majority he needed to get his deal ratified by Parliament.The mess I don't know how to get out of is not Brexit, it's Johnson's government. I'm well aware brexit is now staying. I doubt the EU would want us back anyway and I don't blame them. And I don't see how anyone can lay the blame on something becoming a shit show at the feet of the very people who didn't want it in the first place. We didn't vote to shit our pants. Anyway, I'll give you this, you are consistent in your argument, and you are still on here sticking your neck out, so respect for that. The rest have wilted off into the distance.
Ha ha ha. Fair enough, you're really sticking to that trench. No mate, it's not my own fault but your logical gymnastics are genuinely impressive. I actually removed the "Own your own turd" as I didn't want to have a row, but when I'm speaking to someone still using the term 'remoaners' it's hard to discuss things seriously. Have a wonderful Monday morning.People like you caused the animosity that caused people to turn to Johnson's Tories that gave him the majority he needed to get his deal ratified by Parliament.
If brexit is the fault of leavers, Johnson's Government is wholly down to remoaners like YOU. You pissed people off so much, that they saw Johnson as the only escape. You guys caused that. "Own your own turd", I think you said.
How the hell we get out of this mess, I really don't know.