bluejon
Well-Known Member
TTIP was a disgrace, we are at least agreed on that.
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Political relations between UK-EU
- Thread starter Ric
- Start date
BobKowalski
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 17 May 2007
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What unresearched twaddle. To be honest given your record, I would read more and post less.
You have an issue. Detail them. You were against sweeping generalisations earlier on in the thread.
journolud
Well-Known Member
The problem for me with the threat of TTIP was the potential impact on the NHS. Not that I fully understand all the implications but as far as the security and integrity of the NHS goes, that ship appears to have sailed anyway.I suppose to use that horrible leavers cliche we have at least “taken back control” of our trade agreements. Should this or any future UK government suggest government/ corporate equality with the US or any other country I like to think the public outrage (well at least us two will be there with our banners, loudspeakers and air horns) would be enough to make them think again - the EU, as any neutral observer would attest to, appear a little less sensitive to public opinion. IIRC the German public were pretty vocal against TTIPs and protested but that had zero discernible impact on the continuing negotiations - I think the EU said at the time they weren’t going to be dictated to by the rabble and that they are mandated to carry out such negotiations as they see fit (ok they didn’t say rabble but it was something I recall being equally contemptuous).
The problem for me is the EU still want it - be interesting to see if they manage to progress this again with the US. I do find the EUs stance on TTIPs somewhat baffling - it stinks the place out.
Anyroad should the EU fuck it off under their own steam whilst shouting our public services are not for sale you dirty corporate bastards - then I’d be more than happy to say I got it wrong. But as things stand, I stand by my reasoning and vote.
On topic, I don’t think Brexit has left us in a strong negotiating position
BobKowalski
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 17 May 2007
- Messages
- 20,316
I suppose to use that horrible leavers cliche we have at least “taken back control” of our trade agreements. Should this or any future UK government suggest government/ corporate equality with the US or any other country I like to think the public outrage (well at least us two will be there with our banners, loudspeakers and air horns) would be enough to make them think again - the EU, as any neutral observer would attest to, appear a little less sensitive to public opinion. IIRC the German public were pretty vocal against TTIPs and protested but that had zero discernible impact on the continuing negotiations - I think the EU said at the time they weren’t going to be dictated to by the rabble and that they are mandated to carry out such negotiations as they see fit (ok they didn’t say rabble but it was something I recall being equally contemptuous).
The problem for me is the EU still want it - be interesting to see if they manage to progress this again with the US. I do find the EUs stance on TTIPs somewhat baffling - it stinks the place out.
Anyroad should the EU fuck it off under their own steam whilst shouting our public services are not for sale you dirty corporate bastards - then I’d be more than happy to say I got it wrong. But as things stand, I stand by my reasoning and vote.
And the lessons were learnt and put into place during the Brexit negotiations. Transparency, keeping the stakeholders on side, better comms. If you want to cite a country that tries to keep things under wraps and away from scrutiny, including its own parliament, when it comes to trade deals then the UK is a textbook case.
Your ‘principled vote’ is far more likely to usher in what you profess to dislike.
metalblue
Well-Known Member
TTIP was a disgrace, we are at least agreed on that.
And our very own Cameron was in favour of it. The snide prick.
metalblue
Well-Known Member
You have an issue. Detail them. You were against sweeping generalisations earlier on in the thread.
There’s some very interesting EU published documents on the subject of TTIPs that somewhat disprove your viewpoint. I’ll dig them out when I get the chance.
metalblue
Well-Known Member
The problem for me with the threat of TTIP was the potential impact on the NHS. Not that I fully understand all the implications but as far as the security and integrity of the NHS goes, that ship appears to have sailed anyway.
On topic, I don’t think Brexit has left us in a strong negotiating position
The NHS was the main/obvious one for me. Although it had the potential to really rip through the heart of not only all our public services but also our society. Laws would no longer only have to concern themselves with what is right when what is right isn’t always what is best for profit.
We will probably never agree on this but for me the EU allows member states to dilute responsibility for “collective decisions” - to a point not an unreasonably because they are decisions that the collective have delegated/mandated to the EU. Brexit removes that “cover” and puts our government accountability front and centre on all decisions, no longer can they point the finger and say it’s not our fault (well ok this current lot still do but I’m talking about a proper government)
BobKowalski
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 17 May 2007
- Messages
- 20,316
There’s some very interesting EU published documents on the subject of TTIPs that somewhat disprove your viewpoint. I’ll dig them out when I get the chance.
Please do. Please also remember that trade deals require qualified or full ratification by member states. Public sentiment was increasingly hostile to TTIP and with good reason. In the Covid era, EU states are even more twitchy about trade deals. Probably why we got such a shit one.
Please also remember, the UK would prostitute itself for a trade deal with the US. Not that Biden is interested. Like the EU, trade deals are not top of their ‘to do‘ list.
journolud
Well-Known Member
It’s not an unreasonable viewpoint. I think with reference to my earlier comments about the generalisations of brexiteers there’s also an element of remainers having a one eyed view of the EU as being an entirely benevolent entity. On balance I’d still rather we had stayed in but can see the EU is far from perfect.The NHS was the main/obvious one for me. Although it had the potential to really rip through the heart of not only all our public services but also our society. Laws would no longer only have to concern themselves with what is right when what is right isn’t always what is best for profit.
We will probably never agree on this but for me the EU allows member states to dilute responsibility for “collective decisions” - to a point not an unreasonably because they are decisions that the collective have delegated/mandated to the EU. Brexit removes that “cover” and puts our government accountability front and centre on all decisions, no longer can they point the finger and say it’s not our fault (well ok this current lot still do but I’m talking about a proper government)
Sadly, and to be fair I think you have acknowledged this (up to a point), we have a government that is incompetent, unable to take responsibility for anything and more interested in their own self preservation than what might be good for the country. You’d think the two would be the same but seems not
You missed out Gullible, both to the Brexit lies and to the British exceptionalism that they've suckled on the teet of since they were too young to know any better.Brexiteers - thick as fucking mince - too old and stubborn to admit they are wrong - too racist to back down - they fit into one or all of those boxes. Told my kids hang on a few years as so many will die off they can then start a movement to rejoin