Not strictly true. West Germany were able to take advantage of the Marshall Plan - let’s not forget also that West Germany’s infrastructure had been completely destroyed and, basically, had to plan everything from the ground up.Just watched a documentary which suggested that the reason between the UK and the EU on Brexit actually IS WW2 would you believe it? We came out of it wounded and impoverished whereas Germany not feeling the need to develop 11 fighter planes and 16 battle tanks at once - indeed not being allowed to got on with producing quality jobs. homes and cars.
Meanwhile we in Britain got on with being British - rationed food until the mid-50's kept producing draughty slums and traditional ( not innovative } cars.
We got ourselves in such a mess we had to go to the IMF for a loan and had to join the prospering EEC on the understanding they were always going to integrate further to rationalise spending and promote peace and harmony.
Throughout our membership period we were afforded exceptionalism by means of opt out of things we didn't feel comfortable with like Schengen - although that was not applied to us so Brits could go live and work throughout the EU with no limits.
Bad actors then came to the fore - you can all name them - promising the earth if we left - mostly because they don't like forriners. So when you can't eat at your favourite cafe next Tuesday because they can't get staff for that shift of the local hand car wash shuts down due to no staff or you can't get a hair etc etc etc - don't blame Blair blame the brexit mod we are where we are because of their fucking weird xenophobia
A very interesting read.Thats a great read...though to be honest, its so frustrating to see so many people talk in terms of Catholic and Protestant when discussing "them and us".....when im sure that the vast majority of them do not practise their religion
A very interesting read.
Some quite surprising comments from unionist voters. Some not so surprising.
I do think if Sinn Fein gain power down here and they are still gaining in the polls, they will be strategically placed in an advantageous position if any kind of United Ireland was to materialise. They are currently the only party in all 32 countries.
I do think if a New United Ireland was done correctly then the fears unionists have if their place in it, may be misplaced. They would or could have far more say in governance in the new country than they presently do in the UK. They just need to start looking at the bigger picture snd think and plan outside the box.
Sinn Fein are targeting the young. The next generations of voters whose country this will be, both North and South. Currently they are the only party doing this.
I Don think a border poll is as straight forward down south as some might suspect. I think a very detailed plan and package of what a New Country would look like would need to be presented to us.
I haven’t heard that discussion held in earnest by any party yet. As much as I could see it being hard to stomach for Unionism up north, I suspect there would be a few unpalatable compromises that society in general down south would have to accept.
I don’t necessarily see this as being something we wouldn’t ultimately adapt to, as society has changed so much down here in the past few decades anyway.
I think you can rest assured your first view presented will not and I don’t think can happen under the GFA.Don't get me wrong, I think for myself that Northern Ireland would be better off remaining within the UK than becoming part of the RoI, but it's a matter for the people of Northern Ireland.
What surprises me is that Sinn Fein seem to have no vision of what a united Ireland might look like other than absorb the 6 counties into the existing republic. East and West Germany didn't present it as a takeover of one nation by the other. Even China went down the 'one country two systems' road.
Northern Ireland has its own laws, judiciary, police, legal system, politics, legislature, education system, healthcare system (within the NHS) etc etc. The prospect of Gardai on the beat in Belfast, of laws being made in Dublin not Belfast, to me look like an occupation than a reunification. And that's speaking as someone who doesn't have skin in the game.
It seems to me an approach that said 'look, nothing very much will change, NI will retain all its own systems etc, will be essentially an independent part of a federal but united Ireland. But you'll be back in the EU.'' would be far more comforting to the protestant majority than 'Dublin is taking over.'
Has that approach even been suggested by Sinn Fein?
Thanks for that.I think you can rest assured your first view presented will not and I don’t think can happen under the GFA.
Something along the lines of your second view presented is what needs to be discussed.
No. Sinn Fein haven’t seriously addressed the issue down south either and until such time as they get in government here, don’t see them doing so.
Personally I don’t think this will happen in the next decade although things can change quickly, I accept. But I don’t think this was perceived as a possibility in this generation originally, and then Brexit happened.
I still see Scotland leaving the Union first as far more likely as the GFA is the unionist’s guarantee that they can remain British, but the DUP supporters in particular don’t seem to grasp that. They just want things to remain as they are forever, regardless of what democracy might produce.
One thing is certain, having seen that the wording in a referendum is so important, but not nearly as important as the detail that goes into the manifesto, I don’t think anyone north or south of the border would entertain a border poll without a clear understanding of what comes after a positive result for unification. If indeed unification is what it would be.Thanks for that.
I will need to read the GFA again. I recall that the border poll is mandatory in certain circumstances, and I seem to recall that if a majority voted for unification in a border poll, that would be mandatory too. What I don't recall is whether the GFA deals with what happens after that. My understanding was that what happens then structurally is up to the people of the island of Ireland.
Since Brexit I have thought that either Scotland or NI will depart the UK but not both. Seems to me that independence echoes Brexit itself - romantic and idealistic, but the devil is in the detail, and in economic terms extremely damaging. Like stories or Irexit and Grexit have fallen by the wayside, I suspect one's decision will lead to the other doing the precise opposite.
The UK had more money from the Marshall Plan than anyone else.Not strictly true. West Germany were able to take advantage of the Marshall Plan - let’s not forget also that West Germany’s infrastructure had been completely destroyed and, basically, had to plan everything from the ground up.
We did have huge debts though from lend/lease which weren’t paid back until the 2000’s I think.The UK had more money from the Marshall Plan than anyone else.
We chose to waste it on, among other things, playing at being a Great Power and paying down historic debt.