Political relations between UK-EU

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metalblue said:
What an outstanding contribution to the debate. I particularly liked the part where you insult the intelligence of people you’ve never met.

I sleep very well safe in the knowledge I will never be wrong in voting leave. I voted leave because of TTIPs and protecting our public services like the NHS from foreign corporations interference and prosecutions is something I would do again, and again, and again. I could equally ask anyone who voted remain how do they sleep at night knowingly voting for that?, matters not it is in the long grass now the fact it even had the traction it did at that time should have rang alarm bells in everyone of us. Now many people probably weren’t even aware of it but that does beg the question did the “remainers” know what they were voting for ;)
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As one of the more coherent Brexiteers I'm struggling to believe you posted that with a straight face. You voted leave because of a potential US-EU trade deal that the EU rejected and that we've independently been seeking ever since? And you think that would protect the NHS?
Incredible.
 
journolud said:
Voting leave to protect the NHS is a new one on me and I would genuinely like to understand that more. There has previously been a lot of talk, perhaps unsubstantiated but who knows, about the threat to the NHS from a potential trade deal with Trump's America. There were of course constant denials.

The only mention of the NHS that I remember from the leave campaign was the famous side of the bus quote, this was less about protecting the NHS but funding it.

Meanwhile, among other things, a number of our railway franchises are in the hands of foreign companies and possibly states. I understand this to be as a result of government polices that have allowed them to be sold off, not due to some instruction or direction from the EU.

So, can you educate me as to where the threat to the NHS from the EU would have arisen?
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So TTIP negotiations were largely secretive but what did come out was it allowed US corporations to sue governments for loss of earnings due to government policy. So for example the Health England run a no smoking campaign and Benson&Hedges (the footballers) sue the UK government for loss of earnings, don’t drink and drive? Fosters want some money. It was a massive power shift from government and the state to corporations where corporations could hold states to account but states couldn’t hold corporations to account. Think about this for a minute ... any action by a government deemed counter to the profits of a corporation would face legal action - private provision of health providers would have to be opened up to competition and private hospitals would demand same treatment (tax payer money) and access as the NHS to patients, they would cherry pick services (anything unprofitable would be left in the NHS of course). It was in short a massive deregulation of our entire system for profit alone - now I’m a free marketer at heart and even I was “fuck, this is dangerous”
 
metalblue said:
So TTIP negotiations were largely secretive but what did come out was it allowed US corporations to sue governments for loss of earnings due to government policy. So for example the Health England run a no smoking campaign and Benson&Hedges (the footballers) sue the UK government for loss of earnings, don’t drink and drive? Fosters want some money. It was a massive power shift from government and the state to corporations where corporations could hold states to account but states couldn’t hold corporations to account. Think about this for a minute ... any action by a government deemed counter to the profits of a corporation would face legal action - private provision of health providers would have to be opened up to competition and private hospitals would demand same treatment (tax payer money) and access as the NHS to patients, they would cherry pick services (anything unprofitable would be left in the NHS of course). It was in short a massive deregulation of our entire system for profit alone - now I’m a free marketer at heart and even I was “fuck, this is dangerous”
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And, as I said earlier, TTIP was rejected by the EU.
 
BobKowalski said:
I am posting about what is happening right now. Not predictions. Reality. No amount of sky screaming is changing that.
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And we are posting realities back, because all the major facets have been concluded with a trade deal, which gives tariff free access, no CM, no ECJ.
This has pissed you off something rotten and we now hear we have 'A shit
trade deal,' which is a comfort blanket to assuage the unpalatable fact that
you've been telling us for years that all that was totally impossible.
We now boil down to a small percentage of an industry that is miniscule towards GDP, one that will grow, because we can grow it, but still only small
in the scheme of things.
I have said that unless the EU start playing nicely about this, there will be a response, and eventually, they'll see sense as they did over NI, and backed down.
We'll see who is right.
 
west didsblue said:
As one of the more coherent Brexiteers I'm struggling to believe you posted that with a straight face. You voted leave because of a potential US-EU trade deal that the EU rejected and that we've independently been seeking ever since? And you think that would protect the NHS?
Incredible.
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Yes mate. I honestly did. And would do it again. No corporation should ever hold sway over state policy. The EU didn’t reject it, Trump (probably by accident) did. But it’s not about it not getting signed it’s about the fact it was even being discussed. The EU should have walked away but they didn’t - and the only way I could show my displeasure to that was to vote leave.

I do acknowledge that the new CPTPP is the bastard offspring of TTIP and I watch it with interest and some concern.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
I don't think you've seen the changes in quotas agreed in the deal.
Plus, you cannot have been around immediately after we joined, and
the destruction wreaked on the likes of Grimsby.
'Left to our own devices we would have continued overfishing.'
This is utterly laughable, since joining EU countries, particularly Spain,
have been hoovering the seas around our shores and you come out with that?
All this concern you're showing for an industry where a few weeks ago
you were describing as inconsequential, now seems to be your main focus.
You are completely in thrall, but we've known that for ages, anything they
do that is detrimental to us is cheered and crowed over, their actions
defended over these stunts as though they hold the moral high ground.
Thank Christ you keep losing.
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What are you "winning"?

The herring went, Iceland won the cod wars (thousands lost their jobs and the government paid out compensation as late as 2012 for jobs lost 35 years before), and if you really don't get why we have quotas and who got them and who sells them, I'll stick to sensible conversations.
 
Vic said:
We are going to introduce pettifogging rules on imports. Just not yet.

Has the EU broken the deal? We may have misunderstood molluscs (or not got it in writing), but you are openly advocating that the UK tear up a month old deal, and think this will be good for us.

You really do like pain.
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No, they have torn up the deal, what on earth have you been watching?
They agreed to continue importing molluscs under the existing system,
then, unilaterally, they then scrap that agreement.
Because they can.
This is what we're talking about, the response to that.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
Millions are to be invested in fishing. It's simply your idea, not what is happening. Quotas have been increased immediately, But I suppose with the
kind of logic we see on here that really means catching less.
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Nobody is investing in an idle industry - where does the investment money come from? Will a body that provides investment funds for what is not going out to work get them a return? Quotas have been increased but market access closed off !

Pork is in the same position today with no means of export to its biggest market spring lamb will be next - 3rd country status brings complications that were just completely ignored until like stepping on a rake they smack us in the face
 
west didsblue said:
And, as I said earlier, TTIP was rejected by the EU.
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My recollection is that the EU withdrew from the TTIP talks as a response to the US withdrawing from the Paris Agreement on climate change. Equally, IIRC, rejoining the paris accord was one of the executive orders Biden signed on his first day.

It will be interesting to see whether the TTIP discussions resume or not. I'd guess not, because the world has moved on and giving US corporations the right to sue for damages because of EU public health initiatives is a fundamentally bad idea. However that's just my guess. For the time being it goes onto the 'time will tell' pile.

EDIT

Having looked it up, I think it was Trump who withdrew from the TTIP talks at first, following which there were further, more limited talks before the EU announced that TTIP would not be resurrected (citing the US departure from the paris accord) in 2019.
 
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Vic said:
Please don't join the jingoists who spout militarist nonsense. Not when we were talking seriously.

If you just meant our resolve to commit self-harm we've certainly shown how good we are at that. "The English vice" is now policy.
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I wasn’t spouting military action mate if that was what you were saying? That would be crazy. I was just merely saying if the EU are kicking us around and acting the school yard bully then they shouldn’t underestimate us. Maybe it’s a little bit of the old empire in me
 
Ancient Citizen said:
Well, maybe not totally destroyed, they can decide to fish the middle of the South Atlantic, or the North Pacific, or wherever else they like to make up any shortfall.
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Or the Med, the Baltic, eastern North Sea, western Irish Sea, North Atlantic, Bay of Biscay, southern English Channel. In fact everywhere outside our EEZ.
 
journolud said:
Is a bail out the same as investment?
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They really don't get it. Throw whatever money you like at it if there is no market place nobody is putting to sea where its dangerous to catch something you can't sell. If there is no market for your produce you don't pay to pull it out of the ground you plough it back in and don't bother planting next years crop. Egg demand fell dramatically at the start of the pandemic. What was the answer? Keep collecting laid eggs and stock pile them until they go off? Nope - 100k laying eggs were gassed instead.

The money is a sop to buy time - nothing is fixed nothing will work without a market place into which you sell. If that means only the home market then you adjust the size of the business, the numbers employed and tax paid to fit the new circumstances.
 
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