Poverty in UK

[metalblue]

It’s the lack of affordable houses that is the issue as your points imply. We took some measures against purchases by overseas companies such as levying stamp duty and requiring the beneficial owner to be named, but not enough. The tax code is part of the answer and needs urgent attention when Labour get in.

How’s any of that going to work for housing associations though? You solve one problem and create another.

 

[BrianW]

But even this is bollocks for most people, isn't it? For most people, your house price is only important if you sell your house, at which point the fact that every other house has increased at the same rate kinda makes it irrelevant. What is really relevant is your house price in relation to others. And even then, most people who've got a house they're happy with aren't usually interested in moving to make a few quid. I feel like house prices are something that is really important to property investors that owners of a single family home have all been convinced is really important for them too. For me, the only ordinary people who should worry about house prices are people who risk ending up in negative equity if it loses value.

I mean I get that you can borrow against the value of your home, but other than that, is there really any benefit to house price increases? If house prices remained the same for the next 10 years (not crashed), would anyone who's not a property investor really suffer?

Well, it makes you feel good that your net worth is substantially more than 10 years ago. I wouldn't underestimate the value of that feeling among middle-class and above voters.

At my age, I could borrow far more against my house than I paid for it and still live in it until I die. Yeah, the interest would pile up and leave less for my heirs and assigns, but I could live extremely well on the proceeds, most of which I have not earned except by house price inflation far exceeding ordinary inflation.

If I had had bought two, three, or ten properties my capital gain would have been gigantic. Albeit, I would have to pay CGT if I sold anything other than my main residence. Many people with votes are in this position and they certainly don't want house prices to fall.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Tbf, there is much more land available in the US. We all live cheek by Jowl in comparison.

You LIVE cheek by jowl because you are literally forced to! I fly over the UK all the time and you would be shocked how much open land there is. But, most of it has restricted use.

Look on any real estate/land for sale site and you’ll see you can BUY land, but you can often not do a damned thing with it!

There was a recent thread/post on here about some land, woodland I believe, for sale. Why not allow someone to buy it and build a nice house in it? Increases the value of the land, improves the tax base, uses land that would otherwise not be used, and creates a beautiful home site.

Here’s a perfect example:

Rushlake Green, Heathfield TN21 Woodland - £195,000

Forests - Herne Hill present this Woodland in Rushlake Green, Heathfield TN21

www.onthemarket.com

 

[KS55]

How’s any of that going to work for housing associations though? You solve one problem and create another.

The role for HAs in creating more affordable housing would need the gov to increase the grant for new builds.

 

[KS55]

You LIVE cheek by jowl because you are literally forced to! I fly over the UK all the time and you would be shocked how much open land there is. But, most of it has restricted use.

Look on any real estate/land for sale site and you’ll see you can BUY land, but you can often not do a damned thing with it!

There was a recent thread/post on here about some land, woodland I believe, for sale. Why not allow someone to buy it and build a nice house in it? Increases the value of the land, improves the tax base, uses land that would otherwise not be used, and creates a beautiful home site.

Here’s a perfect example:

Rushlake Green, Heathfield TN21 Woodland - £195,000

Forests - Herne Hill present this Woodland in Rushlake Green, Heathfield TN21

www.onthemarket.com

Oh Crickey, that is a massive can of worms which includes: arstocratic ownership, the aim to create new forests, the green belt, grants to old estates to refrain from building, local planning versus central powers over strategic planning, the fast growing population, tax treatment, leasehold reform, bio diversity requirements…..etc etc.(Note: A road near me was built on stilts to preserve a unique insect.)
Nobody who travels round England would be shocked by the amount of open land, they are more likely to be shocked by any attempt to build on it! It’s not a case of “being forced” it is the will of the people. Against all that, we import 50% of our food. Typical Britain is like typical City……just no rhyme or reason.
I wonder if we are the only country where attempts to develop land are sometimes thwarted by protestors sitting up the trees.

 

[kaz7]

Because it generates replies and discussion. He's a troll/wum.

He is dazdon and he hasnt got any nicer with his new name

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Well, it makes you feel good that your net worth is substantially more than 10 years ago. I wouldn't underestimate the value of that feeling among middle-class and above voters.

At my age, I could borrow far more against my house than I paid for it and still live in it until I die. Yeah, the interest would pile up and leave less for my heirs and assigns, but I could live extremely well on the proceeds, most of which I have not earned except by house price inflation far exceeding ordinary inflation.

If I had had bought two, three, or ten properties my capital gain would have been gigantic. Albeit, I would have to pay CGT if I sold anything other than my main residence. Many people with votes are in this position and they certainly don't want house prices to fall.

Indeed.

Many people, especially those that want to retire somewhere nice, quiet, perhaps a little smaller and more manageable, find their home is their greatest asset. Tapping that value has improved many a life in later years.

As you rightly state, home equity is a wealth storage facility and, when used properly and judiciously, is”free money” to greatly improve one’s life.

My brother does wills and trusts and the main reason most people take them out is their home equity and what happens to that when they die.

In the US there is an increasingly popular thing called a reverse mortgage. After years of paying one’s mortgage while working and having the income to cover it, many people are faced with less income than they’d like in retirement, but don’t want to sell the home they’ve lived in their entire adult lives or move away from friends and their community. A form of home equity loan that can be cheaper is having a reverse mortgage company send you a cheque every month, based on the value of your house, that’s paid off when the estate either sells the house after death or turns it over to the reverse mortgage company for the cash balance.

 

[KS55]

Indeed.

Many people, especially those that want to retire somewhere nice, quiet, perhaps a little smaller and more manageable, find their home is their greatest asset. Tapping that value has improved many a life in later years.

As you rightly state, home equity is a wealth storage facility and, when used properly and judiciously, is”free money” to greatly improve one’s life.

My brother does wills and trusts and the main reason most people take them out is their home equity and what happens to that when they die.

In the US there is an increasingly popular thing called a reverse mortgage. After years of paying one’s mortgage while working and having the income to cover it, many people are faced with less income than they’d like in retirement, but don’t want to sell the home they’ve lived in their entire adult lives or move away from friends and their community. A form of home equity loan that can be cheaper is having a reverse mortgage company send you a cheque every month, based on the value of your house, that’s paid off when the estate either sells the house after death or turns it over to the reverse mortgage company for the cash balance.

My figures are out of date but some years ago, the average net wealth in UK was £8,000 while in Germany it was less than £1000. Uk wealth was stored in housing, while Germany’s tax treatment of mortgages meant owner occupation by people under about 55 was almost non existent.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Oh Crickey, that is a massive can of worms which includes: arstocratic ownership, the aim to create new forests, the green belt, grants to old estates to refrain from building, local planning versus central powers over strategic planning, the fast growing population, tax treatment, leasehold reform, bio diversity requirements…..etc etc.(Note: A road near me was built on stilts to preserve a unique insect.)
Nobody who travels round England would be shocked by the amount of open land, they are more likely to be shocked by any attempt to build on it! It’s not a case of “being forced” it is the will of the people. Against all that, we import 50% of our food. Typical Britain is like typical City……just no rhyme or reason.
I wonder if we are the only country where attempts to develop land are sometimes thwarted by protestors sitting up the trees.

EXACTLY!!

I’ve told the story of seeing a farmers field of grass, no livestock. 2-3 acres with a great view not being used for any purpose I could see. I’m out walking with my brother and his wife, who works for a global commercial property developer. I asked her how much I could offer to buy the field and build a cottage on it to enjoy the views on a small plot?

She laughed her arse off at my naiveté and started down the long list of reasons why it could & would never happen! In fact, she recorded episodes of show called “Permission Impossible” for me to watch the next time I was over. UFB!!

I also remember Gary Chuckle was trying to build a virtually subterranean Telly Tubbies type house, that could barely be seen, and he ran into all kinds of road blocks, not the least of which were people complaining that there would be an increase in traffic and maybe he’d have loud parties, etc. No idea if he actually got to build it or not!

When insects become more important than the needs of people, we’ve lost the plot.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

My figures are out of date but some years ago, the average net wealth in UK was £8,000 while in Germany it was less than £1000. Uk wealth was stored in housing, while Germany’s tax treatment of mortgages meant owner occupation by people under about 55 was almost non existent.

Who owns all the real estate? “Show me your papers!” (Too soon?)

By contrast, I recently bought a half acre of land behind my lake house to protect my views of the lake, even though it would have been very challenging for anyone to build on that half acre. I wrote up the warranty deed myself, had it notarized, handed over $1,000 cash to the seller, recorded the deed, then paid the assessment on the property…all in one morning a few months ago. Bish, bash, bosh! And now I never have to worry about someone ruining my view.

You can see my home’s property line, which has been mowed and the grassy lot in question between us and the lake in these pictures:



This all occurred in a fairly restrictive private community that is very conscious of home and land values, as we have our own maintenance and fees structure to service the entire community separately from city services, of which we receive none.

 

[KS55]

EXACTLY!!

I’ve told the story of seeing a farmers field of grass, no livestock. 2-3 acres with a great view not being used for any purpose I could see. I’m out walking with my brother and his wife, who works for a global commercial property developer. I asked her how much I could offer to buy the field and build a cottage on it to enjoy the views on a small plot?

She laughed her arse off at my naiveté and started down the long list of reasons why it could & would never happen! In fact, she recorded episodes of show called “Permission Impossible” for me to watch the next time I was over. UFB!!

I also remember Gary Chuckle was trying to build a virtually subterranean Telly Tubbies type house, that could barely be seen, and he ran into all kinds of road blocks, not the least of which were people complaining that there would be an increase in traffic and maybe he’d have loud parties, etc. No idea if he actually got to build it or not!

When insects become more important than the needs of people, we’ve lost the plot.

A field of grass is to provide food for livestock in the winter. Much of our livestock is not hardy and is kept indoors in winter.
2–3 acres is a bit small but fodder is precious. I think about 30 acres would be more usual.

 

[Palerider]

As far as I can see no country has ever solved poverty so there is no template to follow. It's also very, very difficult to get true like for like comparisons between countries so it's really difficult to say country A is better than country B so we should follow what country A is doing. I've put some figures below from internet searches but they all seem to be using different ways of calculating poverty levels so should not be taken as gospel. It does look that having higher 'Scandinavian tax levels' would lower poverty but not overwhelmingly so. And don't forget that putting up taxes would probably put more people into poverty. So yet again, no simple answers.



From the internet.
----
Luxembourg, whose financial sector makes up 25% of its GDP, is the world's richest country by GDP per capita. With a population of just 660,000, the country is also considered a tax haven, incentivizing foreign investment due to its favorable tax policies

From an internet search on Luxembourg
The poverty rate is down slightly on the previous year, from 18.1% to 17.4% in 2022! The subjective indicator of "struggling to make ends meet" is moving in the same direction, and is also falling.



For those of us who want higher taxes to pay for 'Scandinavian public services'

From various searches.

------
In Sweden, relative poverty rates2 range from 11% to 21% across regions. This 10 percentage point difference is less pronounced than the average difference observed across the 29 OECD countries with available data (16 percentage points). below the relative poverty line (60% of the national median income).

At-risk-of-poverty rate in Norway 2012-2022, by broad group of country of birth​

Published by
Einar H. Dyvik,
Feb 8, 2024
Between 2012 and 2022, the at-risk-of-poverty rate among the Norwegian-born population was around 10 percent, whereas it was around 13 percent for the EU-born population, but dropped below 10 percent for the the latter in 2022. However, after dropping in 2014 and 2017, the rate among the citizens born outside of the EU was above 30 percent from 2018 to 2020, before dropping to 25 percent in 2022.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

As far as I can see no country has ever solved poverty so there is no template to follow. It's also very, very difficult to get true like for like comparisons between countries so it's really difficult to say country A is better than country B so we should follow what country A is doing. I've put some figures below from internet searches but they all seem to be using different ways of calculating poverty levels so should not be taken as gospel. It does look that having higher 'Scandinavian tax levels' would lower poverty but not overwhelmingly so. And don't forget that putting up taxes would probably put more people into poverty. So yet again, no simple answers.



From the internet.
----
Luxembourg, whose financial sector makes up 25% of its GDP, is the world's richest country by GDP per capita. With a population of just 660,000, the country is also considered a tax haven, incentivizing foreign investment due to its favorable tax policies

From an internet search on Luxembourg
The poverty rate is down slightly on the previous year, from 18.1% to 17.4% in 2022! The subjective indicator of "struggling to make ends meet" is moving in the same direction, and is also falling.



For those of us who want higher taxes to pay for 'Scandinavian public services'

From various searches.

------
In Sweden, relative poverty rates2 range from 11% to 21% across regions. This 10 percentage point difference is less pronounced than the average difference observed across the 29 OECD countries with available data (16 percentage points). below the relative poverty line (60% of the national median income).

At-risk-of-poverty rate in Norway 2012-2022, by broad group of country of birth​

Published by
Einar H. Dyvik,
Feb 8, 2024
Between 2012 and 2022, the at-risk-of-poverty rate among the Norwegian-born population was around 10 percent, whereas it was around 13 percent for the EU-born population, but dropped below 10 percent for the the latter in 2022. However, after dropping in 2014 and 2017, the rate among the citizens born outside of the EU was above 30 percent from 2018 to 2020, before dropping to 25 percent in 2022.

The OP is talking about absolute poverty not relative poverty.