Premier League investigation unit

[youngbob]

Apology accepted fair do’s

It's a touchy subject for me. Bit close to my heart, so I assume that a lot of people come at it on the offensive so I just immediately put my defences up. Water under the bridge though, mate; can only say sorry again.

 

[youngbob]

What was it she said that equated to bigoted shit? Or for that matter, transphobic? I think all she said was that men who identified as women aren't women. Or am I missing something?

I am old, I find it tiring to keep up with all this stuff, tbh.

It goes a bit deeper than that unfortunately. She's referred to trans women as groomers, predators, nonces, perverts, etc. Laughed about them "chemically castrating" themselves. Has claimed "the trans ideology is based off Nazism". There's also another tweet which has now been deleted where she says Nazis "had the right idea" when it came to exterminating transgender people during World War II.

I'm not sure it's a reason to ban someone from a football stadium, as has been discussed in this thread at length, but as others have said, Newcastle are a private business at the end of the day and it's their choice who they let onto their premises. If other Newcastle supporters have raised safety concerns - which they have - and if the club has pro-LGBT policies in place then (some would argue) they have to live and die by those policies.

Like I've said in this thread - at City, I know I'm surrounded by people whose views don't reflect my own. We've all had season tickets for years and we're all from different backgrounds, it's bound to happen. But I just keep the topic on football and away from politics. Nobody minds, everybody gets along. I imagine it's the same at Newcastle so I'm not sure if Linzi Smith's views are really relevant when it comes to sitting in a football stadium.

But her views on, say, blacks or Jews or disabled people aren't relevant to football either, but if Newcastle had banned her for making relentless racist or anti-Semitic posts on Twitter then I'm not sure this thread would have even been made because it's widely understood and acknowledged that prejudice towards Jews and blacks isn't on. Transphobia is just as serious in reality but society is still on a journey towards accepting that.

For what it's worth, just as an aside, it's completely fine to struggle to keep up with this stuff. Social media has intensified a lot of focus on things which have always existed in the margins but have never really received this level of attention before. The truth is that real life isn't how Twitter makes it seem - everything's a battlefield on there, and because every journalist in the world is on Twitter they'll always behave like they're reporting in a warzone.

I know a lot of trans people. I know a handful of people who are, as they identify themselves, "gender critical". The god's honest truth is that the trans people I know in real life, they just want to feel safe and happy, go to work and get paid like the rest of us, and go to bed at night with a roof over their head. Your average person with gender critical views is the same, just wants to feel safe, happy, financially secure, and warm. Their views or ideologies rarely factor into their every day life.

Sadly social media prevents these people from interacting because they really could see eye to eye, in my opinion, if given a proper chance.

But the ones who are deep in the trenches on social media are only there because there's nothing else going on in their lives. These are the people I worry about the most, for their own sake. That's when gender critical-ism (?) becomes something more extreme, more radical, more dangerous. It's where Brianna Ghey's murder originated, with two nutters on social media apps wondering if Brianna would "scream like a boy or a girl" when they stabbed her. The rest of society is more forgiving, more even-handed.

And it's the same everywhere. Doesn't matter if it's anti-vaccine protests or FFP conspiracies or political arguments or what have you, Twitter has made the world a worse place and has completely destroyed our ability to converse and communicate without losing it. Forums have too, just to a lesser extent. I nearly lost it before with @Stoned Rose Rose over next to nothing. Imagine that happening a thousand times per day and you can see why things are so polarised.

But would I have bollocked @Stoned Rose like I did if we were in a pub? Would gender critical people harass trans people if they bumped into each other in a supermarket? Would trans people get into these arguments if they were at work, or would they just keep their heads down for a quiet life? Social media has given us a lot but it's taken away so much more. It can feel like you can't keep up but in all honesty, as far as the real world is concerned, as long as you're polite and open-minded with everyone you actually meet and encounter then you'll never get left behind.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

I'm not sure it's a reason to ban someone from a football stadium, as has been discussed in this thread at length, but as others have said, Newcastle are a private business at the end of the day and it's their choice who they let onto their premises.

People think this, but in reality, it's not strictly speaking true. You have to have a legitimate reason, or you open yourself up to lawsuits. Firstly, you can't refuse to serve someone because of a 'belief' they hold. And the gender-critical view has been tested in court, and the gender-critical person won. Obviously what this person has said went a bit beyond just gender critical views.

The other issue is that you have to have a genuine reason to refuse service, and it has to be applied equally to all customers. They are also generally supposed to be made clear to customers. And that's where we come to the slight gestapo tactics involved here, where they seem to have singled out someone for things they have done or said that didn't involve football or Newcastle at all.

I guess the principle we're deciding here is 'Should a non-famous white supremacist who has never caused any trouble at the football be banned from going to the football?'

The irony is that in conducting their investigation and banning her, they've basically made her a little bit famous. And now that everyone knows her, the club can legitimately claim that her coming to the game would cause a disturbance and reflect badly on the club. But they've created that reality.

 

[hammocity]

Can I still call the rags and dippers cunts?

Carry on Pike

 

[hammocity]

Don't tell him your name, Pike !!

Ha ha, just reading the thread from the beginning and posted before I saw your post, call me a plagiarist, I won’t be offended :-)

 

[hammocity]

Why would she win?

She made transphobic comments on a public platform and is now upset that a private business doesn’t want her as a customer any more.

She’s got no more of a claim than the stupid twats who get rejected from job applications or lose their jobs for posting bigoted shit on their public social media profiles.

What a shock, you pipe up with your PC rhetoric, ffs, give it a rest.

 

[halfcenturyup]

It goes a bit deeper than that unfortunately. She's referred to trans women as groomers, predators, nonces, perverts, etc. Laughed about them "chemically castrating" themselves. Has claimed "the trans ideology is based off Nazism". There's also another tweet which has now been deleted where she says Nazis "had the right idea" when it came to exterminating transgender people during World War II.

I'm not sure it's a reason to ban someone from a football stadium, as has been discussed in this thread at length, but as others have said, Newcastle are a private business at the end of the day and it's their choice who they let onto their premises. If other Newcastle supporters have raised safety concerns - which they have - and if the club has pro-LGBT policies in place then (some would argue) they have to live and die by those policies.

Like I've said in this thread - at City, I know I'm surrounded by people whose views don't reflect my own. We've all had season tickets for years and we're all from different backgrounds, it's bound to happen. But I just keep the topic on football and away from politics. Nobody minds, everybody gets along. I imagine it's the same at Newcastle so I'm not sure if Linzi Smith's views are really relevant when it comes to sitting in a football stadium.

But her views on, say, blacks or Jews or disabled people aren't relevant to football either, but if Newcastle had banned her for making relentless racist or anti-Semitic posts on Twitter then I'm not sure this thread would have even been made because it's widely understood and acknowledged that prejudice towards Jews and blacks isn't on. Transphobia is just as serious in reality but society is still on a journey towards accepting that.

For what it's worth, just as an aside, it's completely fine to struggle to keep up with this stuff. Social media has intensified a lot of focus on things which have always existed in the margins but have never really received this level of attention before. The truth is that real life isn't how Twitter makes it seem - everything's a battlefield on there, and because every journalist in the world is on Twitter they'll always behave like they're reporting in a warzone.

I know a lot of trans people. I know a handful of people who are, as they identify themselves, "gender critical". The god's honest truth is that the trans people I know in real life, they just want to feel safe and happy, go to work and get paid like the rest of us, and go to bed at night with a roof over their head. Your average person with gender critical views is the same, just wants to feel safe, happy, financially secure, and warm. Their views or ideologies rarely factor into their every day life.

Sadly social media prevents these people from interacting because they really could see eye to eye, in my opinion, if given a proper chance.

But the ones who are deep in the trenches on social media are only there because there's nothing else going on in their lives. These are the people I worry about the most, for their own sake. That's when gender critical-ism (?) becomes something more extreme, more radical, more dangerous. It's where Brianna Ghey's murder originated, with two nutters on social media apps wondering if Brianna would "scream like a boy or a girl" when they stabbed her. The rest of society is more forgiving, more even-handed.

And it's the same everywhere. Doesn't matter if it's anti-vaccine protests or FFP conspiracies or political arguments or what have you, Twitter has made the world a worse place and has completely destroyed our ability to converse and communicate without losing it. Forums have too, just to a lesser extent. I nearly lost it before with @Stoned Rose Rose over next to nothing. Imagine that happening a thousand times per day and you can see why things are so polarised.

But would I have bollocked @Stoned Rose like I did if we were in a pub? Would gender critical people harass trans people if they bumped into each other in a supermarket? Would trans people get into these arguments if they were at work, or would they just keep their heads down for a quiet life? Social media has given us a lot but it's taken away so much more. It can feel like you can't keep up but in all honesty, as far as the real world is concerned, as long as you're polite and open-minded with everyone you actually meet and encounter then you'll never get left behind.

Fair enough, thanks for the informative and balanced reply. And not blasting me like you did Stoned. :)

She sounds a bit weird, I was only going off what I read in the media the first time this came out. Media, eh? I should have known better. On the other hand, we probably all sound weird in heated arguments on Twitter. And, as you say, everyone is different on social media.

Personally, I still think everyone is a **** (except you, of course, you sound very normal) and I call everyone cunts on here, but I wouldn't do it in real life. Well, not so much anyway.

It's interesting a Saudi-owned club taking this stand, though.

 

[Newman Noggs]

I complained about Garnacho racist tweet he wasnt banned. In fact kick it out and the fa never responded to my email.

Same here. They just ignored my several emails.

 

[117 M34]

People think this, but in reality, it's not strictly speaking true. You have to have a legitimate reason, or you open yourself up to lawsuits. Firstly, you can't refuse to serve someone because of a 'belief' they hold. And the gender-critical view has been tested in court, and the gender-critical person won. Obviously what this person has said went a bit beyond just gender critical views.

The other issue is that you have to have a genuine reason to refuse service, and it has to be applied equally to all customers. They are also generally supposed to be made clear to customers. And that's where we come to the slight gestapo tactics involved here, where they seem to have singled out someone for things they have done or said that didn't involve football or Newcastle at all.

I guess the principle we're deciding here is 'Should a non-famous white supremacist who has never caused any trouble at the football be banned from going to the football?'

The irony is that in conducting their investigation and banning her, they've basically made her a little bit famous. And now that everyone knows her, the club can legitimately claim that her coming to the game would cause a disturbance and reflect badly on the club. But they've created that reality.

Nigel Farage being stopped from having a bank account last year would be relatively similar.
That didn't end too well for the bank.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

Nigel Farage being stopped from having a bank account last year would be relatively similar.
That didn't end too well for the bank.

Yeah, and they had more of an excuse, because they would at least claim that being associated with him would cause negative publicity for the bank (although I wonder whether anyone would have found out had he not had it removed).

I think there are definitely different considerations when it's a high-profile person. I think letting Tommy Robinson into the ground would definitely qualify as having the potential to cause trouble, even if he was on his best behaviour. Whereas someone no-one has ever heard of who agrees with everything he says wouldn't be an issue.