Priti Vacant has a plan, a deal with migrants plan.

[metalblue]

France has arguably the best health care in the world. I think you've been misled by some stats that don't count it as national expenditure, but it's 15% of government spending.

It does. But it’s different to our system. It’s not free at the point of delivery, and funding of treatment is a combination of patient, state and insurance. They have to pay to see their GP (and that is mostly reimbursed), they have to pay to stay in hospital, along with ever increasing contributions to treatment - the sort of system I think Farage was proposing which was roundly booed on here.

 

[metalblue]

Manchester has different priorities to Maidenhead , Wigan has different priorities to Wycombe, Aberdeen has different priorities to Abersoch, Belfast has different priorities to Bristol and so on.

You use devolution of powers and decentralisation of treasury spending to the those disparate area's so they can concentrate on what there specific needs are. It works, it is happening now in Manchester where this Government much to its credit has given part of the Health budget to Manchester and instated metro Mayors with the power to decide where Manchester's priorities lie because our priorities are different to Maidenheads.

There is no reason apart from political will that model could not be expanded so that the priorities of Madrid, Munich and Milan all had the same as Manchester.

The best way to tackle Nationalism is through Localism, give local people the democratic power to decide what is best for their communities. Of course we could still be separate nations and support England v Estonia or Germany v Greece at sport, but we do that locally now as we support Manchester City v Mansfield. Their is nothing wrong with being proud of your identity, but we all have multiple identities, I am a Salford born, City supporting Mancunian, who lives in Cheadle, I am English, British and why not European too, because I do live in Europe.

The only people who would resent it are outright Nationalists, people who do think they are exceptional and think somehow there identity is more special than somebody else's, but when you break identity down they are not, they are products of their local environment so return power to local environments and they can be proud of there own environment, their local town, their local City, their County, their Country, their Nation and their Continent.

We are all human beings, we thrived as a species because we co-operated with each other, we traded with each other, we exchanged ideas, we told stories, we didn't thrive by being insular, uncooperative , silent and protective.

Localism is actually arguing against expansionism (which is what a United States of Europe would be), expansionism would only serve to dilute the local voice. Current national governments would have powers akin to regional councils, the voice of Manchester would not be heard no more than the voice of Clifton is heard today - it would simply be lost in the competing noise.

I disagree that resentment would even be based in nationalism, it’s actually about shared values - fairness is probably one of the great values we British all like to think we possess - do you think every nation in Europe holds the same value of fairness or even the same definition of what that means? We can’t even live with ourselves in harmony, we all complain about sections of our own British society that we do not see as holding our values, you do it all the time mate - do you think chucking more ingredients in the mixing bowl will improve things? We might stop seeing folks on Facebook complaining about Karen from Rochdale who’s on the dole and just had a holiday to Florida and start seeing them complain about Krystyna from Poland who is on the dole and just had a holiday to Florida. Krystyna will think we are fucking nuts and it’s very fair she goes on holiday because birthing 5 kids is her contribution to society. Who are we to judge? But we will - just read any thread on here. You only have to look at various counties in Europe to see festering resentment of the perceived oppressed that already exists, hell just look at what happened to Yugoslavia.

It’s a romantic idea though.

 

[BobKowalski]

Localism is actually arguing against expansionism (which is what a United States of Europe would be), expansionism would only serve to dilute the local voice. Current national governments would have powers akin to regional councils, the voice of Manchester would not be heard no more than the voice of Clifton is heard today - it would simply be lost in the competing noise.

I disagree that resentment would even be based in nationalism, it’s actually about shared values - fairness is probably one of the great values we British all like to think we possess - do you think every nation in Europe holds the same value of fairness or even the same definition of what that means? We can’t even live with ourselves in harmony, we all complain about sections of our own British society that we do not see as holding our values, you do it all the time mate - do you think chucking more ingredients in the mixing bowl will improve things? We might stop seeing folks on Facebook complaining about Karen from Rochdale who’s on the dole and just had a holiday to Florida and start seeing them complain about Krystyna from Poland who is on the dole and just had a holiday to Florida. Krystyna will think we are fucking nuts and it’s very fair she goes on holiday because birthing 5 kids is her contribution to society. Who are we to judge? But we will - just read any thread on here. You only have to look at various counties in Europe to see festering resentment of the perceived oppressed that already exists, hell just look at what happened to Yugoslavia.

It’s a romantic idea though.

Individual States in the US have a considerable degree of autonomy, as do Lands in Germany or provinces in Canada.

A United States of Europe is unlikely, but the EU is based on mutual cooperation and benefit and that by necessity leads to harmonisation between countries and becomes a de facto State, albeit only in trade. Although the raising of funds by the EU for the Covid relief plan is another step in the member states authorising further autonomy for the EU. But the main power will lie with domestic Govts as it does currently.

The current trend seems to be for ’regionalisation’, with crucial supply chains based within a self contained region, given no one country, certainly no European country is big enough to do this. This is where collective cooperation will matter and the importance of a European Single Market will be felt.

Yugoslavia is what happens when a collective state falls apart and succumbs to localism and tribalism. A warning to us all perhaps.

 

[Rascal]

Localism is actually arguing against expansionism (which is what a United States of Europe would be), expansionism would only serve to dilute the local voice.

Not if the right democratic system was in place. There is no reason why expansionism and localism can not co-exist.

Current national governments would have powers akin to regional councils, the voice of Manchester would not be heard no more than the voice of Clifton is heard today - it would simply be lost in the competing noise.

In Manchester all the towns of Manchester have a voice when it comes to how the health budget is spent, they all co-operate. The voice is not lost, it is there and it is done by one thing the Human Race has always been good at, co-operating.

I disagree that resentment would even be based in nationalism, it’s actually about shared values - fairness is probably one of the great values we British all like to think we possess - do you think every nation in Europe holds the same value of fairness or even the same definition of what that means?

Do i share the same values as you, no, that is why we have democracy so that those with the values that are in the majority have the biggest say.

We can’t even live with ourselves in harmony,

Yet there has been no major Pan-European war since 1945.

we all complain about sections of our own British society that we do not see as holding our values, you do it all the time mate - do you think chucking more ingredients in the mixing bowl will improve things?

Human beings like to moan, we love to whinge , we love to gossip, Yuval Noah Harari suggests that gossip played an important part in the development of humanity. The more things we have to gossip about the greater humanity becomes.

We might stop seeing folks on Facebook complaining about Karen from Rochdale who’s on the dole and just had a holiday to Florida and start seeing them complain about Krystyna from Poland who is on the dole and just had a holiday to Florida. Krystyna will think we are fucking nuts and it’s very fair she goes on holiday because birthing 5 kids is her contribution to society. Who are we to judge? But we will - just read any thread on here.

Only certain people woman, I have no problem with any of the above. I woman about Capitalism, others will do as well. We like to woman, we are intelligent enough to woman.

You only have to look at various counties in Europe to see festering resentment of the perceived oppressed that already exists, hell just look at what happened to Yugoslavia.

Yet the countries of the former Yugoslavia are happy to co-exist under the auspices of the EU.

It’s a romantic idea though.

It is a romantic idea, but I am a romantic, i am also a believer in things could be better not just for me, but for Karen from Rochdale and Krystyna from Poland if we co-operated and we learned from each other because the only thing that really divides us is lines on maps and political opposition.

 

[KPXBLN]

Going back to the new borders bill rather than French healthcare, this is really good: https://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2021/july/the-other-shore

One powerful section:

In 1943, Hitler gave orders that the eight thousand or so Danish Jews be rounded up and deported to concentration camps. Fishermen mobilised by the Danish resistance secretly ferried most of them to safety in neutral Sweden, charging for the passage. Half of the cost was met by the passengers themselves, but many were too poor to cover the fees, and the resistance raised the remaining sum. More than seven thousand Danish Jews made it to safety, but some were intercepted by the Nazis and deported, and 23 people drowned.

I draw on this case study when I teach moral philosophy to undergraduates. It is an example of civil disobedience as well as a challenge to the ethics of Kant, who deemed it immoral to lie under any circumstances. I ask students whether the fishermen were right to flout Nazi law, and how they ought to have responded if officials intercepted the boats and asked about their cargo. Students unanimously agree that it was right to break the law and lie about it. When I ask them what that view might commit us to in the present day, they’re quieter.

 

[Rascal]

Going back to the new borders bill rather than French healthcare, this is really good: https://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2021/july/the-other-shore

One powerful section:

Of that whole blog this is more powerful

They would have known the risks, but as Warsan Shire writes in her poem Home:

"you have to understand
that no one puts their children in a boat
unless the water is safer than the land"

 

[hilts]

The UK takes in around 35,000 refugees per year.

Germany takes in around a million a year.

France takes in around 350k a year.

Turkey has around 3 million refugees currently.

Around 80% of refugees stay in the country they first enter.

All this hyperventilating over the paltry numbers that come to the UK or indeed try and make it across the Channel is deranged.

Isn’t that up to the those countries and being generally fucked by geography must come into play. Let’s face it a more welcoming policy towards refugees isn’t a vote winner tbh.

 

[hilts]

I really never understood what would be the problem with a 'United States of Europe'. I hear people pronounce the peril of unelected bureaucrats from Brussels and the delight in being able to make our own laws, but I cannot grasp what makes people feel that the UK makes a good job of that: crime has soared; debt had doubled before the pandemic; we have the lowest state pension in Europe; burgeoning homelessness; collapsing social care; MPs who will award contracts to their friends without a tender process; a Prime Minister who will allow donors to enter the House of Lords, and cash for lobbying is a regular feature. In what way will laws from Brussels be worse than what we have become?

The main problem with a United States of Europe would be the fact that no one has bothered to ask the citizens of Europe if they want one, any party is free to push for one in a manifesto or god forbid the EU might want to actually ask the question themselves.

This country isn’t the best if I’m being honest but people need to look at each other a bit more rather than a shite govt who actually got voted in. As I have said before anyone who votes Tory or Labour have brought a lot of shite down on their own heads.

 

[Don Karleone]

Mings

 

[bluethrunthru]

The myth being perpetrated by Patel and her supporters is that this targets people smugglers. No it doesn't. No member of a people smuggling gang drives the dinghy across the channel. If you make the person responsible for getting the dinghy across the channel criminally liable so they can be arrested and detained. Then what? Prison? If you can't get other countries to take refugees off us you are not going to have better luck trying to deport someone you have just made into a criminal are you?