Regrouping of singers within the stadium

[Nixon_The_Bike_Thief]

been discussed before pretty sure the old stadium roof had sound deadning in for the commonwealth games .think it might of been worsley that posted it ?

and I could definately be wrong but I thought the outcome was that the noise reflecting element of the roof was planned for the commonwealth games but once we started the expansion it came to light it had not been done but will be addressed in the refurb ?

 

[Gingers Dad]

Registered my interest for five of us with the 1894 group. Really hope this comes off but will try to move to this area anyway.
Wish everyone would stop kidding themselves about the acoustics. We all know it's down to us fans as plenty of away fans have proved many times. Nothing to do with singing section being split either. Being out sung by 300 Fulham fans proved that. Anyway I'll hopefully be in the South Stand level one next season doing my bit.

 

[jrb]

City Voice.

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

Registered my interest for five of us with the 1894 group. Really hope this comes off but will try to move to this area anyway.
Wish everyone would stop kidding themselves about the acoustics. We all know it's down to us fans as plenty of away fans have proved many times. Nothing to do with singing section being split either. Being out sung by 300 Fulham fans proved that. Anyway I'll hopefully be in the South Stand level one next season doing my bit.

Completley agree, acoustics has nothing to do with it. I heard the poznan and arise fans perfectly well up in level 3. we just need people to sing

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Registered my interest for five of us with the 1894 group. Really hope this comes off but will try to move to this area anyway.
Wish everyone would stop kidding themselves about the acoustics. We all know it's down to us fans as plenty of away fans have proved many times. Nothing to do with singing section being split either. Being out sung by 300 Fulham fans proved that. Anyway I'll hopefully be in the South Stand level one next season doing my bit.

Completley agree, acoustics has nothing to do with it. I heard the poznan and arise fans perfectly well up in level 3. we just need people to sing

You don't understand acoustics then.

One of the simple rules of it is that the closer the singers are to the roof, the more then noise bounces around and is amplified. The kippax was a great example of that. Look at the angle of the roofs at our stadium. They are high, and don't have a downward cantilever. It means that the sound doesn't bounce back down very well, unless it is originating from all the sides of the stadium.

Wembley is a classic example. It's loud, but often just a mud of sound. Different areas of the stadium are singing different songs and each aren't aware the others are doing it. It takes a lull in sound, and the the start of a song that everyone can hear and simultaneously join in with, to create a proper song.

And most importantly, materials like concrete -significantly for us as he bottom of the second tier is concrete- deaden sound compared to other materials.

It's also the existence of tiers. They reduce atmosphere because the sound generated on the bottom tier doesn't travel well up to the top one. Think of a song as like a wave. Barriers, acoustic or physical, stop the wave from spreading.

This last one is a relevant point. There's crowd psychology at play. Many people in a football stadium
Will join in if others around them do. There are arguably more of these people than anyone else in a stadium. You need that loud start and quick spread to a song for it to really 'catch on'. If we score a goal, usually, 10 or 20 thousand people might want to sing a victory song. But they won't sing if there's no one to copy because all they can here is two songs clashing from two ends.

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

Registered my interest for five of us with the 1894 group. Really hope this comes off but will try to move to this area anyway.
Wish everyone would stop kidding themselves about the acoustics. We all know it's down to us fans as plenty of away fans have proved many times. Nothing to do with singing section being split either. Being out sung by 300 Fulham fans proved that. Anyway I'll hopefully be in the South Stand level one next season doing my bit.

Completley agree, acoustics has nothing to do with it. I heard the poznan and arise fans perfectly well up in level 3. we just need people to sing

You don't understand acoustics then.

One of the simple rules of it is that the closer the singers are to the roof, the more then noise bounces around and is amplified. The kippax was a great example of that. Look at the angle of the roofs at our stadium. They are high, and don't have a downward cantilever. It means that the sound doesn't bounce back down very well, unless it is originating from all the sides of the stadium.

Wembley is a classic example. It's loud, but often just a mud of sound. Different areas of the stadium are singing different songs and each aren't aware the others are doing it. It takes a lull in sound, and the the start of a song that everyone can hear and simultaneously join in with, to create a proper song.

And most importantly, materials like concrete -significantly for us as he bottom of the second tier is concrete- deaden sound compared to other materials.

It's also the existence of tiers. They reduce atmosphere because the sound generated on the bottom tier doesn't travel well up to the top one. Think of a song as like a wave. Barriers, acoustic or physical, stop the wave from spreading.

This last one is a relevant point. There's crowd psychology at play. Many people in a football stadium
Will join in if others around them do. There are arguably more of these people than anyone else in a stadium. You need that loud start and quick spread to a song for it to really 'catch on'. If we score a goal, usually, 10 or 20 thousand people might want to sing a victory song. But they won't sing if there's no one to copy because all they can here is two songs clashing from two ends.

the poznan and aris fans were unbelievably loud. the roof didn't affect them at all. I was sat in level 3 and could hear every word they were singing. I just think its an excuse. Tha qpr game is another example we there were reports your could hear the cheer from the city centre. Hamburg swell, the songs spread easily and everyone in the ground sang the same song. The reason was everyone was singing and up for it. If we had that all the time this acoustics debate wouldn't be happening.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

But you've confirmed the point. If you get 3-6000 away fans all together, all wanting to sing and doing it at exactly the same time, you get a big noise which fills the space up to the roof. Our ground hasn't got that
For home fans.

The Hamburg game had all the ingredients in terms of excitement and tension, but also it had another factor: the tickets were all sold for a fiver in a single day. By 1 o'clock that afternoon you had groups of young working class fans buying up groups of seats in the 3rd tier, the north stand, everywhere. So this 'spreading' problem vanished for once. Most of the songs that night started high up in the stadium and usually at the North end. Songs which start up there (they don't since it became family only) can spread down and both left and right all at once. So the sound fills the stadium quickest. Another time that happened was that Derby when they gave the free scarves.

If you get a game like QPR or United everyone is so hyped that you are always going to get everyone singing along. Those games aren't really a problem, it's the smaller games when the players need a lift or the early round champions league games.

We aren't going to turn the place into a caldron of noise for a Sunday January home game against Watford. But it can be better, and a larger group of singers will achieve that.

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

But you've confirmed the point. If you get 3-6000 away fans all together, all wanting to sing and doing it at exactly the same time, you get a big noise which fills the space up to the roof. Our ground hasn't got that.

The Hamburg game had all the ingredients in terms of excitement and tension, but also it had another factor: the tickets were all sold for a fiver in a single day. By 1 o'clock that afternoon you had groups of young working class fans buying up groups of seats in the 3rd tier, the north stand, everywhere. So this 'spreading' problem vanished for once. Most of the songs that night started high up in the stadium and usually at the North end. Songs which start up there (they don't since it became family only) can spread down and both left and right all at once. So the sound fills the stadium quickest. Another time that happened was that Derby when they gave the free scarves.

If you get a game like QPR or United everyone is so hyped that you are always going to get everyone singing along. Those games aren't really a problem, it's the smaller games when the players need a lift or the early round champions league games.

We aren't going to turn the place into a caldron of noise for a Sunday January home game against Watford. But it can be better, and a larger group of singers will achieve that.

I completely agree with getting the singers together. I was more making a point about acoustics and the roof. If we get the singers all in one place I dont think the roof matters

 

[jrb]

People often say Stoke City have the best home atmosphere.

If true, there's two very good reason for that.

One continual stand and set of singing supporters, and one continual low roof that keeps the sound/atmosphere in.

 

[M18CTID]

Completley agree, acoustics has nothing to do with it. I heard the poznan and arise fans perfectly well up in level 3. we just need people to sing

You don't understand acoustics then.

One of the simple rules of it is that the closer the singers are to the roof, the more then noise bounces around and is amplified. The kippax was a great example of that. Look at the angle of the roofs at our stadium. They are high, and don't have a downward cantilever. It means that the sound doesn't bounce back down very well, unless it is originating from all the sides of the stadium.

Wembley is a classic example. It's loud, but often just a mud of sound. Different areas of the stadium are singing different songs and each aren't aware the others are doing it. It takes a lull in sound, and the the start of a song that everyone can hear and simultaneously join in with, to create a proper song.

And most importantly, materials like concrete -significantly for us as he bottom of the second tier is concrete- deaden sound compared to other materials.

It's also the existence of tiers. They reduce atmosphere because the sound generated on the bottom tier doesn't travel well up to the top one. Think of a song as like a wave. Barriers, acoustic or physical, stop the wave from spreading.

This last one is a relevant point. There's crowd psychology at play. Many people in a football stadium
Will join in if others around them do. There are arguably more of these people than anyone else in a stadium. You need that loud start and quick spread to a song for it to really 'catch on'. If we score a goal, usually, 10 or 20 thousand people might want to sing a victory song. But they won't sing if there's no one to copy because all they can here is two songs clashing from two ends.

the poznan and aris fans were unbelievably loud. the roof didn't affect them at all. I was sat in level 3 and could hear every word they were singing. I just think its an excuse. Tha qpr game is another example we there were reports your could hear the cheer from the city centre. Hamburg swell, the songs spread easily and everyone in the ground sang the same song. The reason was everyone was singing and up for it. If we had that all the time this acoustics debate wouldn't be happening.

The Poznan and Aris fans were awesome, particularly Aris who were the loudest set of fans I think I've ever heard. However, they were all in one section of the ground and not spread out in different stands so it was easier for their songs to catch on and the fact that pretty much every Aris and Poznan fan was prepared to sing helped as well. The trouble we have is that the 2 main areas of singers are separated by the away section. Many moved out of 116/117 to 110/111 when the club designated the latter as a singing section for the 2007-08 season. I and two mates moved over to 111 from 117 the following season but what this did was split the singers up. It was a poor idea by the club in hindsight to create a new singing section on the other side of the away fans because it diluted the numbers of singers in blocks 116/117 and from where I am in 111 I often struggle to hear those in 116/117 and vice versa. Also, songs that start at the back of the first tier often don't carry very well because they bounce off the very low roof above - a mate of mine was near the front of 111 last season for an FA Cup game with his kids and while we were busting our lungs near the back he said it didn't carry forward very well and of course not everyone in the block is up for singing even though it's viewed by many as a singing section.

This new proposal will solve a lot of those problems because we're talking about having pure singers only all in one section. Even a modest looking figure of 300-400 will make a difference, better still if it's a full block of 700 bouncing around and singing all game. That could lead to a snowball effect where other fans who like what they see and hear may want to be a part of it and express a desire to move to the neighbouring blocks so they can join in.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Sorry cheadlehulmeblue. I got ranting and rambling a bit. I just think the stadium has a high roof and it doesn't help, especially as our singers are on the bottom tier. The penny dropped for me the couple of times I sat in the east stand upper tier and I was stunned at how little sound carries upwards from the singing corner, and then once I sat on the east stand lower tier and you couldn't hear the south stand even when you could see their hands clapping. When you sit, as I do every week, opposite those two sections in the Colin bell it isn't like that.

Of course it's a multi-faceted problem without a magic wand solution. And of course you are right that if everyone did stand up and sing there wouldn't be an issue.

 

[M18CTID]

People often say Stoke City have the best home atmosphere.

If true, there's two very good reason for that.

One continual stand and set of singing supporters, and one continual low roof that keeps the sound/atmosphere in.

Of all the new stadia, the single tier ones definitely tend to be the best for atmosphere. Not just Stoke, but Swansea and Hull as well - the noise just carries so much easier in those grounds.

It sounds mental but on a pro-rata basis in terms of numbers of fans, I thought the EDS game at the Academy stadium on Sunday had a miles better atmosphere than many games at the Etihad!

 

[trevorriley]

A number of things, acoustics, roof, 3 tier etc all make a difference...

We mention yaris & poznan fans, another huge difference here is singing a song for longer so everybody gets singing in time and allows the song to spread.. We sing short songs and by the time they are picking up volume its either ended or another group start singing a different song. A longer song picks up momentum and gets louder. By the time the yaris and poznan fans where only half way through their songs it was extremely loud so carried well across the stadium and third tier..

Bluemoon for example, it takes two rounds of the song before the stadium picks up on it and joins in while lifting scarves, by this time the fans that started singing bluemoon have got bored and stopped singing. Scarves drop and we dont even break in to a third round of singing bluemoon. We need to let it go on 4 or 5 times like when we beat the rags 1 nil 3 years ago to go top of league. That was as loud as yaris & poznan.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

A number of things, acoustics, roof, 3 tier etc all make a difference...

We mention yaris & poznan fans, another huge difference here is singing a song for longer so everybody gets singing in time and allows the song to spread.. We sing short songs and by the time they are picking up volume its either ended or another group start singing a different song. A longer song picks up momentum and gets louder. By the time the yaris and poznan fans where only half way through their songs it was extremely loud so carried well across the stadium and third tier..

Bluemoon for example, it takes two rounds of the song before the stadium picks up on it and joins in while lifting scarves, by this time the fans that started singing bluemoon have got bored and stopped singing. Scarves drop and we dont even break in to a third round of singing bluemoon. We need to let it go on 4 or 5 times like when we beat the rags 1 nil 3 years ago to go top of league. That was as loud as yaris & poznan.

You're spot on in everything you say. It's the reason why "hark now hear" always catches on: it has a huge intro with the 'my father' bit. There's also a sort of conflicting side to this: the long lasting 'clapalong' type songs dont spread . You will never heard "I've never felt more like singing the blues' boom around the stadium. You just don't. It has to be the anthem type songs, which are usually short.

That's why the songs need to spread in every direction at once, from one point only.

 

[jrb]

I've got a good feeling about the new 3rd tier, and the 6000 new season ticket holders.

Most of them in the 3rd tier will probably be working class City fans that have been desperate for a season ticket for years. They will probably be a vocal bunch as well, especially being sat next to the away fans. Add a lower roof which will amplify any noise, and we should end up with a large tier that creates a decent atmosphere. The only downside being, fans who don't sing relocating from other areas of the stadium en-masse, due to the cheaper season tickets. If that happens we'll end up with another quiet tier.

 

[trevorriley]

A number of things, acoustics, roof, 3 tier etc all make a difference...

We mention yaris & poznan fans, another huge difference here is singing a song for longer so everybody gets singing in time and allows the song to spread.. We sing short songs and by the time they are picking up volume its either ended or another group start singing a different song. A longer song picks up momentum and gets louder. By the time the yaris and poznan fans where only half way through their songs it was extremely loud so carried well across the stadium and third tier..

Bluemoon for example, it takes two rounds of the song before the stadium picks up on it and joins in while lifting scarves, by this time the fans that started singing bluemoon have got bored and stopped singing. Scarves drop and we dont even break in to a third round of singing bluemoon. We need to let it go on 4 or 5 times like when we beat the rags 1 nil 3 years ago to go top of league. That was as loud as yaris & poznan.

You're spot on in everything you say. It's the reason why "hark now hear" always catches on: it has a huge intro with the 'my father' bit. There's also a sort of conflicting side to this: the long lasting 'clapalong' type songs dont spread . You will never heard "I've never felt more like singing the blues' boom around the stadium. You just don't. It has to be the anthem type songs, which are usually short.

That's why the songs need to spread in every direction at once, from one point only.

Exactly, "never felt more like singing the blues" / "hark now hear" / "oh when the blues go marching in" all get chance to start and pick up the volume and carry on the momentum.

Fingers crossed 115 will get it going as it should be, just takes fans participation..

 

[jrb]

A number of things, acoustics, roof, 3 tier etc all make a difference...

We mention yaris & poznan fans, another huge difference here is singing a song for longer so everybody gets singing in time and allows the song to spread.. We sing short songs and by the time they are picking up volume its either ended or another group start singing a different song. A longer song picks up momentum and gets louder. By the time the yaris and poznan fans where only half way through their songs it was extremely loud so carried well across the stadium and third tier..

Bluemoon for example, it takes two rounds of the song before the stadium picks up on it and joins in while lifting scarves, by this time the fans that started singing bluemoon have got bored and stopped singing. Scarves drop and we dont even break in to a third round of singing bluemoon. We need to let it go on 4 or 5 times like when we beat the rags 1 nil 3 years ago to go top of league. That was as loud as yaris & poznan.

You're spot on in everything you say. It's the reason why "hark now hear" always catches on: it has a huge intro with the 'my father' bit. There's also a sort of conflicting side to this: the long lasting 'clapalong' type songs dont spread . You will never heard "I've never felt more like singing the blues' boom around the stadium. You just don't. It has to be the anthem type songs, which are usually short.

That's why the songs need to spread in every direction at once, from one point only.

I hope and think the new singing section will be that critical mass that spreads the songs to the other (singing) sections of the stadium, and then on to other parts of the stadium.

Left to the other South Stand blocks, and right (over the away fans) to the East stand singing sections. If we can get the whole lot singing the same songs, we're looking at close to 3000 fans. Then add the new fans in the 3rd tier, as well as the rest of the stadium, and we may well have cracked it.

Put it this way. Imagine the atmosphere on derby day next season 500-750 dedicated singers in blocks 115-114. The other South Stand lower blocks. Blocks 111, 110, and 109 in the East Stand. And the 3rd tier of the South stand(4500 City fans), next to the largest section of away fans. (1500) In essence, one whole end of the stadium singing and getting behind the team. Surely that will get the rest of the stadium going?

 

[jrb]

A number of things, acoustics, roof, 3 tier etc all make a difference...

We mention yaris & poznan fans, another huge difference here is singing a song for longer so everybody gets singing in time and allows the song to spread.. We sing short songs and by the time they are picking up volume its either ended or another group start singing a different song. A longer song picks up momentum and gets louder. By the time the yaris and poznan fans where only half way through their songs it was extremely loud so carried well across the stadium and third tier..

Bluemoon for example, it takes two rounds of the song before the stadium picks up on it and joins in while lifting scarves, by this time the fans that started singing bluemoon have got bored and stopped singing. Scarves drop and we dont even break in to a third round of singing bluemoon. We need to let it go on 4 or 5 times like when we beat the rags 1 nil 3 years ago to go top of league. That was as loud as yaris & poznan.

You're spot on in everything you say. It's the reason why "hark now hear" always catches on: it has a huge intro with the 'my father' bit. There's also a sort of conflicting side to this: the long lasting 'clapalong' type songs dont spread . You will never heard "I've never felt more like singing the blues' boom around the stadium. You just don't. It has to be the anthem type songs, which are usually short.

That's why the songs need to spread in every direction at once, from one point only.

Exactly, "never felt more like singing the blues" / "hark now hear" / "oh when the blues go marching in" all get chance to start and pick up the volume and carry on the momentum.

Fingers crossed 115 will get it going as it should be, just takes fans participation..

Another chant that never get's sung anymore. And it goes on, and on, A bit old skool.(lyrics)

Everywhere we go(repeated), people want to know(repeated), who we are(repeated), so we tell-em(repeated), we're the boys in blue and white(repeated), love to sing and love to fight(repeated) woo-oh(repeated), woo-oh(repeated), blue and white(repeated), sing and fight(repeated), City! City!

That's one of those perfect songs that can be bounced back and forth from 115-114, across the away fans, to blocks 111, 110, 109, and back again.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

I've got a good feeling about the new 3rd tier, and the 6000 new season ticket holders.

Most of them in the 3rd tier will probably be working class City fans that have been desperate for a season ticket for years. They will probably be a vocal bunch as well, especially being sat next to the away fans. Add a lower roof which will amplify any noise, and we should end up with a large tier that creates a decent atmosphere. The only downside being, fans who don't sing relocating from other areas of the stadium en-masse, due to the cheaper season tickets. If that happens we'll end up with another quiet tier.

Good point about the top tier: It's something I hope too. The fact that the cheapest seats are at the back will hopefully help too. Cheap seats are always noisier seats, and if that stand starts picking up on songs that will have an enormous impact.

One fly in the ointment is that it seems that those displaced for extended corporate on level 2 are supposed to be getting first pick of the new stand, but I'd guess that's 2000 at most and maybe half of them will squeeze in elsewhere. They won't be a noisy bunch.

It's too late, but if I were City I would be going the whole hog on this: calling the new stand The New Kippax, offering really cheap tickets over the whole stand, giving 1894 first pick of an area (and maybe even a budget), promoting it as an 'end', leaving spaces for banners etc etc.

 

[jrb]

I've got a good feeling about the new 3rd tier, and the 6000 new season ticket holders.

Most of them in the 3rd tier will probably be working class City fans that have been desperate for a season ticket for years. They will probably be a vocal bunch as well, especially being sat next to the away fans. Add a lower roof which will amplify any noise, and we should end up with a large tier that creates a decent atmosphere. The only downside being, fans who don't sing relocating from other areas of the stadium en-masse, due to the cheaper season tickets. If that happens we'll end up with another quiet tier.

Good point about the top tier: It's something I hope too. The fact that the cheapest seats are at the back will hopefully help too. Cheap seats are always noisier seats, and if that stand starts picking up on songs that will have an enormous impact.

One fly in the ointment is that it seems that those displaced for extended corporate on level 2 are supposed to be getting first pick of the new stand, but I'd guess that's 2000 at most and maybe half of them will squeeze in elsewhere. They won't be a noisy bunch.

It's too late, but if I were City I would be going the whole hog on this: calling the new stand The New Kippax, offering really cheap tickets over the whole stand, giving 1894 first pick of an area (and maybe even a budget), promoting it as an 'end', leaving spaces for banners etc etc.

Agreed. That's a good point about banners. We've lost the 2nd tier banners to the LED displays. The 3rd tier would be ideal for some new banners that could cement the new 3rd tier and blocks 115 and 114 as the new singing sections. Perhaps 1894 and those relocating could come up with and fund a new and appropriate banner/s for the 3rd tier?

I know I'm repeating myself, but I'd also like the club to add £10 extra to the price of a season ticket in blocks 114 ad 115, which could go to a pot/fund for banners, flags, and displays. I'm 100% sure those relocating wouldn't mind. And it wouldn't be difficult to implement. 500 x £10 = £5000.(or whatever the relocating figures are)