Religion

"C. S. Lewis, in his book Miracles (1947), advocates the use of negative theology when first thinking about God, in order to cleanse our minds of misconceptions. He goes on to say we must then refill our minds with the truth about God, untainted by mythology, bad analogies or false mind-pictures."
via negativa, apophatic/cataphatic theology : from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophatic_theology
 
yep said:
No reason why you should believe what I say. I used to believe in Santa but no longer believe in him. The definition of faith is experience of things unseen. You have experienced love that at one time was not there and then it was. At one time you were in the presence of your partner but did not love them. When you loved them did you SEE something that was not-there before?
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Why did you stop believing in santa and not God? Same amount of evidence for both
 
Religion just does not cut it for me. I recently went to my own mothers ceremony to be accepted into the catholic church, even though I am not religious, I went for her, and that was two and a half hours of my life I wont be getting back.

Anyway listening to the vicar or father or whatever he was I decided I'd edit or update the story about Moses parting the waves, this on the back of being told god loves everyone and god will forgive you your sins etc...

So in layman terms one day the all loving, all forgiving god said to Moses "Hey Moses, these Arab geezers giving you a hard time?" Moses said "well yes, actually they are". So god turns roud and says.... "I have a cunning plan, If you take your people to cross the sea I will part the waves, when all your people are safely on the other side and the Arabs that are chasing you are well and truly into the river, I'm gonna get the waters to rush in and flow again, that way we'll well and truly wipe the bastards out"....

Now to me that doesn't seem like a god that loves everything and everybody that ever walked on this earth... Hypocrisy at best ethnic cleansing at worst wouldn't you say?

Nah, for as long as there are totally innocent people suffering through absolutely no fault of their own I will remain a total non believer.
 
Elbow beards said:
There's a common theme between you and our flat earth friend Hodge, both believe a load of tripe and try and justify it by not answering anything and deflecting with long drawn out responses that go nowhere.
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Enjoy your ignorance - the funny thing is you no idea what it is costing you. Or is that tragic. Anyhow I can understand if you understand with being anti-christ, that any form of christianity might not be for you - as the resurrection is about opening to christ and the end of that which is anti-christ. On the one hand humanity might stop trying to crucify each other, which is quite a good thing I reckon on balance. On the other hand it will mean the death of you? Not such a good thing? Maybe you want to do a bit more about it than write comments on bluemoon? So, there you go. But then what if...with the concept of neti neti, this definition of anti-christ is not who you really are. So you won't die. What might 'die' is a misdefinition of yourself. Good news, maybe? And that perhaps is one way this kind of practice can be useful for some. Ever known of the 'inner critic?' If not you, then can you appreciate that some have and this voice can be harsh to the point that it might lead to depression, self- destructive behaviour or even the taking of one's own life. So as folk come to realise that this critic does not speak the truth of who they really are....so these dark clouds may dissipate and the sun that was always there (but hidden) can come to be known. So a question : are you really so heartless that what is really valuable for you is to make 'clever' comments about people that share here, or have gone through misery elsewhere...or is that this voice you have valued is actually that which keeps you unaware of the Truth of You in the Heart? So you would get to be 'right' in your head about what you think of me but this gets in the way of knowing the joy of the Heart. A kind of pyrrhic victory, surely - albeit a 'clever' one at that? Or something else completely?
 
arfurclue said:
Enjoy your ignorance - the funny thing is you no idea what it is costing you. Or is that tragic. Anyhow I can understand if you understand with being anti-christ, that any form of christianity might not be for you - as the resurrection is about opening to christ and the end of that which is anti-christ. On the one hand humanity might stop trying to crucify each other, which is quite a good thing I reckon on balance. On the other hand it will mean the death of you? Not such a good thing? Maybe you want to do a bit more about it than write comments on bluemoon? So, there you go. But then what if...with the concept of neti neti, this definition of anti-christ is not who you really are. So you won't die. What might 'die' is a misdefinition of yourself. Good news, maybe? And that perhaps is one way this kind of practice can be useful for some. Ever known of the 'inner critic?' If not you, then can you appreciate that some have and this voice can be harsh to the point that it might lead to depression, self- destructive behaviour or even the taking of one's own life. So as folk come to realise that this critic does not speak the truth of who they really are....so these dark clouds may dissipate and the sun that was always there (but hidden) can come to be known. So a question : are you really so heartless that what is really valuable for you is to make 'clever' comments about people that share here, or have gone through misery elsewhere...or is that this voice you have valued is actually that which keeps you unaware of the Truth of You in the Heart? So you would get to be 'right' in your head about what you think of me but this gets in the way of knowing the joy of the Heart. A kind of pyrrhic victory, surely - albeit a 'clever' one at that? Or something else completely?
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tenor.gif
 
BigJoe#1 said:
Religion just does not cut it for me. I recently went to my own mothers ceremony to be accepted into the catholic church, even though I am not religious, I went for her, and that was two and a half hours of my life I wont be getting back.

Anyway listening to the vicar or father or whatever he was I decided I'd edit or update the story about Moses parting the waves, this on the back of being told god loves everyone and god will forgive you your sins etc...

So in layman terms one day the all loving, all forgiving god said to Moses "Hey Moses, these Arab geezers giving you a hard time?" Moses said "well yes, actually they are". So god turns roud and says.... "I have a cunning plan, If you take your people to cross the sea I will part the waves, when all your people are safely on the other side and the Arabs that are chasing you are well and truly into the river, I'm gonna get the waters to rush in and flow again, that way we'll well and truly wipe the bastards out"....

Now to me that doesn't seem like a god that loves everything and everybody that ever walked on this earth... Hypocrisy at best ethnic cleansing at worst wouldn't you say?

Nah, for as long as there are totally innocent people suffering through absolutely no fault of their own I will remain a total non believer.
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The Pharaoh and his people were given a chance to repent. Moses(as) returned to Egypt to proclaim God's message and warned them to change their ways. The punishment meted out to them was for rejecting God's message and His messenger and for the evil they committed against the Israelites.
 
arfurclue said:
I am just about to write "And thence Magicpole decreed that to go to heaven we must first copulate with giraffes." According to you, it would seem that my writing that you said this 'proves' that you did. Maybe not, right?

Beyond that I once came to a point where i asked myself a question : maybe if i let go of trying to figure out how to get higher - perhaps by trampling on other people - and instead learned to feel downwards (grounded) then maybe this would naturally lead to an opening up to states of inspiration, that are free of the compulsive need to treat other people like shit for my own 'benefit.'Now I can't speak for you but I can for me - so as to say i have felt caught in that compulsion before. And it feeds into cycles of self-loathing/getting high/self-loathing/ getting high etc and this can become quite brutal in terms of my own suffering - to the point where I had days where my only goal was to find a way through the day so as to wake up the next morning. Now, can the likes of religion be used/warped so as to effectively treat people like shit to feed a sense of 'false divine superiority' - sure, I tried this myself (not with a church but elsewhere) - 'oh so spiritual on the outside but hugely hated myself on this inside.' After I left that situation, in the next couple of years I barely saw anyone that had anything to do with divinity but I also had quite a conflict - those people i left who had been friends (with whom I had learned 'truth') obviously still saw themselves as the holiest fuckers on the planet. And, fuck didI want to go back and tell them that they were wrong, as if this would somehow changes things for me, as if they would turn around and say 'oh yeah arfur you have a good point there, we will all now change.' So I would agree you that it is possible for madness and abuse to dress itself up as 'truth' and 'sanity' when in fact it isn't. Where I might disagree with you is to whether or not 'divinity' can be a way in which one can come to feel more grounded, balanced, at peace with oneself so as not to treat others/oneself like shit - a practical wisdom if you want. For me this is still an ongoing journey but it is that which i find helps to release suffering in a lived way - and I find more value in this than a solely intellectual, dogmatic 'truth' or 'god.'

So, I'm not so interested in telling you 'go to church' or 'that the bible is right and you are wrong' but, for one, please bear in mind that if I followed a way that says 'all divinity/spirituality/religion is wrong because Magicpole says so,' then that feels like a choice for suffering according to my own practical experience. For two, I perhaps asked because I wonder if you are more in a state of being which is a fight which the church, than actually being fully free of it - whether its possible that you have physically left but it still somehow has emotional and/or mental hooks in you, in a way that may not be so enjoyable? Maybe not my business, in fairness, but I felt to ask - then you have the choice to tell me where to go or not.
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I've read all what you've wrote Arfur, perhaps Arful Dodger was more apt a name in evading what @tonea2003 was asking you; ) Trying to decipher what you were writing was baffling I think, more riddles than your average maggot farm... I thought you were either a wum or bullshitter at one point TBH mate. But, I gleaned you were once a troubled soul searching for your own truths in life, and through all of your soul searching you have found your inner peace? I think so mate. Be that God or the power of love, I'm not sure, but I too now have inner peace in my heart having battled my demons for years to a point of Insanity, much of it caused by being brought a Christian attending sunday school every week having to swallow the bullshit of the Bible, rewritten throughout the ages by deviant charlatans for those gullible enough to comply and adhere to. Oh dear I say, Bigoted pious Pillocks have not turned my brain into an oil sump sodden sponge soaking up the written word to believe!... Until we all accept we are no better or worse than anyone else in this mortal coil, there will never be peace in this world.

All religion is Crass IMO, but who the fuck am I to say what you should or shouldn't believe in. So what, I'm just an idiot(@FantasyIreland, I have the ability to choose when and when not to be an idiot, some don't have that choice; )

This one's for you @arfurclue ; )
At the end of the day we're all just a bunch of blues and the(ahem) odd mecurial Celt as mad as a box of broken Ginger Snaps. Magic yet up the pole; )
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
tenor.gif
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lol. Maybe the point is that the inner critic that people are identified with until they're not is not actually capable of knowing Truth but only mimicking a few ideas here,
a few beliefs there rejecting anything that might threat is sovereignty as that which can decide what is true and what is false. But I suppose you knew that already?
 
arfurclue said:
lol. Maybe the point is that the inner critic that people are identified with until they're not is not actually capable of knowing Truth but only mimicking a few ideas here,
a few beliefs there rejecting anything that might threat is sovereignty as that which can decide what is true and what is false. But I suppose you knew that already?
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I would if I could understand what you were saying.
 
BlueMoon Risin' said:
I've read all what you've wrote Arfur, perhaps Arful Dodger was more apt a name in evading what @tonea2003 was asking you; ) Trying to decipher what you were writing was baffling I think, more riddles than your average maggot farm... I thought you were either a wum or bullshitter at one point TBH mate. But, I gleaned you were once a troubled soul searching for your own truths in life, and through all of your soul searching you have found your inner peace? I think so mate. Be that God or the power of love, I'm not sure, but I too now have inner peace in my heart having battled my demons for years to a point of Insanity, much of it caused by being brought a Christian attending sunday school every week having to swallow the bullshit of the Bible, rewritten throughout the ages by deviant charlatans for those gullible enough to comply and adhere to. Oh dear I say, Bigoted pious Pillocks have not turned my brain into an oil sump sodden sponge soaking up the written word to believe!... Until we all accept we are no better or worse than anyone else in this mortal coil, there will never be peace in this world.

All religion is Crass IMO, but who the fuck am I to say what you should or shouldn't believe in. So what, I'm just an idiot(@FantasyIreland, I have the ability to choose when and when not to be an idiot, some don't have that choice; )

This one's for you @arfurclue ; )
At the end of the day we're all just a bunch of blues and the(ahem) odd mecurial Celt as mad as a box of broken Ginger Snaps. Magic yet up the pole; )
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Thanks for this. Glad to hear of the peace in your heart. I sometimes have this, sometimes not but would agree that a big part of coming to deeper know this, is letting go of being better or worse. But this is something I still fall over and, well, it kinda hurts. Religion, for me, is just a language - there are many of them - but I like the idea that they are the fingers pointing a the moon, as quoted earlier in this thread.

For me I found a way that is similar to what some call the taoist water method as known through Lao Tzu.

It's basic tenets are:
1) Naturalness
2) Inner balance
3) Relaxation
4) Making your body conscious
5) Seventy percent : Do neither too much nor too little
6) Letting go
7) Wu so Hui
8) When the false leaves only the true remains

Won't go deeply into these now It is probably fair to say that is not so prevalent in the west. And yes, I forget this at times - so sometimes when I write, it'll seem for me quite simple and clear yet for others this will seem like gobbledegook. But even within this I might say that each language may eventually come to the idea of letting go of the inner critic as the source of truth (ie seeing it is false) along with its tones of harshness and arrogance that bring about suffering and strife. Beyond that, I first came to this through martial arts (actually it was book called The Tao of Winnie the Pooh but...) but through that I came to see that I wasn't so much learning martial arts but that martial arts was one just one way of 'learning' to open to Truth. No better or worse than any other way, just different. In this way on these threads I have wondered if the areas of the likes of depression, football and politics can also come to be a way to open to Truth - not to force on anyone but for those who freely choose.

Anyhow. Peace to you and all. However misguided or deluded I may come across to some, I am glad I have given it a go
 
arfurclue said:
Ok. Will have a go at answering the best I can. It may not directly answer your questions but may give you a feel for where I am coming from, for now.
There might be said to be a kind of 'love' that is only of arfur. In this way I might see my love as better than some other people's love and worse than others. By nature
this love might be said to be limited.
Then there might be said to be a Love that can be expressed through arfur but is not of him. This Love is of our shared essence. Some might call this divine, infinite and a Love
in which all conditions exist - nothing outside of it.
For me it might be said that I see my relationship with the latter Love as one that has two aspects to it. One might be called the horizontal plane and is where I try to allow this Love into more aspects/areas of my life. The second might be called the vertical plane and is a felt deepening of the experience. I am still learning to open to this and at times I can only go so far until, frankly, I get scared and run back to the mind. So some of the questions asked are still beyond my own known direct experience - I could only point to some folk I respect and say that 'here is an answer they might suggest.'
Beyond that, part of my journey has been trying to come to terms with the notion that my intellect cannot understand - and thus control - this deeper Love but I can slowly allow it to be of service to this Love. Again this too is an ongoing process - areas where perhaps I would still rather trust 'cleverness' over wisdom. In this way too it comes to feel that it is not so much that there is one thought model/ideology/that is 'the best' as such, more that there can be a way of thought that best helps each being open to this Love, in each moment. For each being this might be different, indeed it might be that the model that is best suited to each being changes over time.
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So your religion is based on you being better than everyone else, your feelings being deeper than everyone else's and your judgement being wiser than everyone else's?
 
arfurclue said:
That's a concept/belief right? Truth is another what is an essential state of being - some might use the word 'heart' to point to this. So as one opens to the heart, then one begins to feel freed from the untruths of the mind that are unlike the Truth of the Heart. As one is willing to let go of untruths of the mind then one is deeper able to open to the Heart. Goes in cvcles - through this, the concepts left in the mind more and more come to reflect the conceptless nature of the Truth of the Heart. This some call Love. So, in this way, it does begin to set one free from the untrue concepts of the mind that, with attachment to them, bring suffering. - for you come to trust and feel rooted in Love.

So, to go back a bit one might say that it is the idea that truth is primarily a concept (and then stuff like love is sort of true but because you can't measure it in a laboratory then its mot that important) that eventually is found to be untrue - instead it is opening to essence as primary Truth (with concepts as secondary truth) that truly sets one free. In the former the veracity of words attributed to Jesus may be debated, in the latter for some of these words to be attributed is self - evidently nonsense.
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You’ve just gone woo woo over my head. :)
 
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