Religion

would be VERY intrested on your views of the Koran..go on..show the same disrespect. Muslims view Jesus as a prophet. So be brave, show the same disrespect.If not why not ???
always get this retort
where's the disrespect? its a discussion forum people make claims we agree or disagree
its a mainly christian based discussion so that's where the focus lies
there is the occasional koran based chat but not that much
for what its worth my opinion its all not true but that my opinion
i try to stay away from koran based issues as i have never read it so i am unable to make informed comment
i'm a raised catholic so i'm well placed to make comments bible related
 
Those information come from other sources like Josephus. There is not much in the Roman records about this Roman governor, so it's not some encyclopaedia as is made out to be.
fair point but those that do like philo and josephus paint a very different picture of how he is described in the new testament
he was eventually recalled to rome around ad 36 after another slaughter of pilgrims
 
would be VERY intrested on your views of the Koran..go on..show the same disrespect. Muslims view Jesus as a prophet. So be brave, show the same disrespect.If not why not ???
Every holy book is man made pish. Totally and utter shit, the lot of them. They all have got good bits, but mostly awful and from the minds of men. I am not as familiar with the other books as I find that not being brought up in that culture it’s natural. But all the books are man made and all of them are full of absolute garbage.

So, did I touch a nerve with you being a believer? Not like it when the shit you believe is got at? Away and pray.
 
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would be VERY intrested on your views of the Koran..go on..show the same disrespect. Muslims view Jesus as a prophet. So be brave, show the same disrespect.If not why not ???

Here is a selection of views on the Qur'an, all of them academic. The first is from Maxime Rodinson's study of Muhammad. Rodinson was a French Marxist and therefore it is unsurprising that his book is very far from being hagiographical in nature. I have always found this passage interesting because it demonstrates that scepticism about the divine nature of the Qur'an did not begin with, say, Hitchens and Dawkins:

" ...there has been no lack of independent spirits in Islam to shed doubt on the incomparable nature of the Koranic text. Some have actually set out to write imitations of the Koran.One of these, in medieval times, faced with the objection that his text did not produce the same mesmeric effect as recitations of the Koran, retorted: 'Have it read out in the mosques for centuries and then you will see! '

Here in fact is the heart of the matter. A text on which one has been brought up from infancy and heard recited with great fervour in the most solemn and moving circumstances, which one has studied word for word so that it has become almost a part of oneself, sets up, after a time, a special kind of reaction. It becomes quite impossible to hear it with a fresh ear or look at it with a fresh eye so as to see exactly how it would appear to us if the bare text, free of all associations, were to be put before us for the first time without warning. For Catholics, it is the same with certain scriptural passages and Latin hymns used in the liturgy, and for Protestants with the Bible as a whole. It is not surprising that so many Muslims should be convinced of the inimitable perfection of the Koranic text and amazed and indignant that anyone could doubt it. Nor is it in any way surprising that outsiders, confronted for the first time with the texts in question, should often see in them nothing which appears to them to justify the admiration of those who were brought up on them.

And so the beauty of the Koran has been hotly contested by those who for one reason or another failed to fall under the collective spell. In medieval times a number of free-thinking Muslims wrote books entitled mu'ararjat al-qur 'an, which can be roughly translated as the Anti-Koran. The apologists felt bound to refute them and, especially on a literary level, to produce a painstaking defence of the style and images of the Koran, point by point and word by word. In our own day the great German semitic scholar Theodor Noldeke, a learned student of Arabic, has written at length about the stylistic defects of the Koran."


Another intriguing theory about how the text evolved is the now debunked Hagarism thesis, advanced by Michael Cook and Patricia Crone. It can be read about here:


More recently, Nicolai Sinai (a non-Muslim historian) has authored an excellent book called The Qur'an: A Historical Critical Introduction. It's a highly technical work but in a nutshell, Sinai argues that Islam initially began as a movement predicated on the threat of divine punishment for those Meccans who continued to practise polytheism. When that divine act of retribution failed to materialize and the early Muslims became established in Medina, they themselves became the punishment.

Should just add that I am neither a Muslim nor a Christian and do not have an iron in the fire when it comes to either the historicity of Jesus or Muhammad. However, for what it is worth, I am inclined to think of both of them as having existed.

Haven't got around to it yet but Maurice Casey (an independent, non-Christian historian) ignited a very acrimonious online discussion about whether Jesus existed or not by his trenchant view that he did and subsequently wrote a book called Jesus: Evidence and Argument or Mythicist Myths?

That's where I would start if I wanted to delve more deeply into that issue.

Hope this helps.
 
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Here is a selection of views on the Qur'an, all of them academic. The first is from Maxime Rodinson's study of Muhammad. Rodinson was a French Marxist and therefore it is unsurprising that his book is very far from being hagiographical in nature. I have always found this passage interesting because it demonstrates that scepticism about the divine nature of the Qur'an did not begin with, say, Hitchens and Dawkins:

" ...there has been no lack of independent spirits in Islam to shed doubt on the incomparable nature of the Koranic text. Some have actually set out to write imitations of the Koran.One of these, in medieval times, faced with the objection that his text did not produce the same mesmeric effect as recitations of the Koran, retorted: 'Have it read out in the mosques for centuries and then you will see! '

Here in fact is the heart of the matter. A text on which one has been brought up from infancy and heard recited with great fervour in the most solemn and moving circumstances, which one has studied word for word so that it has become almost a part of oneself, sets up, after a time, a special kind of reaction. It becomes quite impossible to hear it with a fresh ear or look at it with a fresh eye so as to see exactly how it would appear to us if the bare text, free of all associations, were to be put before us for the first time without warning. For Catholics, it is the same with certain scriptural passages and Latin hymns used in the liturgy, and for Protestants with the Bible as a whole. It is not surprising that so many Muslims should be convinced of the inimitable perfection of the Koranic text and amazed and indignant that anyone could doubt it. Nor is it in any way surprising that outsiders, confronted for the first time with the texts in question, should often see in them nothing which appears to them to justify the admiration of those who were brought up on them.

And so the beauty of the Koran has been hotly contested by those who for one reason or another failed to fall under the collective spell. In medieval times a number of free-thinking Muslims wrote books entitled mu'ararjat al-qur 'an, which can be roughly translated as the Anti-Koran. The apologists felt bound to refute them and, especially on a literary level, to produce a painstaking defence of the style and images of the Koran, point by point and word by word. In our own day the great German semitic scholar Theodor Noldeke, a learned student of Arabic, has written at length about the stylistic defects of the Koran."


Another intriguing theory about how the text evolved is the now debunked Hagarism thesis, advanced by Michael Cook and Patricia Crone. It can be read about here:


More recently, Nicolai Sinai (a non-Muslim historian) has authored an excellent book called The Qur'an: A Historical Critical Introduction. It's a highly technical work but in a nutshell, Sinai argues that Islam initially began as a movement predicated on the threat of divine punishment for those Meccans who continued to practise polytheism. When that divine act of retribution failed to materialize and the early Muslims became established in Medina, they themselves became the punishment.

Should just add that I am neither a Muslim nor a Christian and do not have an iron in the fire when it comes to either the historicity of Jesus or Muhammad. However, for what it is worth, I am inclined to think of both of them as having existed.

Haven't got around to it yet but Maurice Casey (an independent, non-Christian historian) ignited a very acrimonious online discussion about whether Jesus existed or not by his trenchant view that he did and subsequently wrote a book called Jesus: Evidence and Argument or Mythicist Myths?

That's where I would start if I wanted to delve more deeply into that issue.

Hope this helps.

mu'ararjat - Is that pronounced correctly ? Can you give an example of such a book and its author under this category ? If the word is muraja'at, it is used in relation to memorization of Qur'an.
 
mu'ararjat - Is that pronounced correctly ? Can you give an example of such a book and its author under this category ? If the word is muraja'at, it is used in relation to memorization of Qur'an.
Unfortunately, I can’t. Rodinson’s reference to these ‘Anti-Qurans’ is the only one I have ever come across in the academic works on Islam that I have read. Unhelpfully, although Rodinson’s book does include footnotes, this section does not contain any.

His intriguing claim has always stuck in my mind because it is so unusual.

I can’t imagine that it is without foundation but unfortunately I don’t read French, and so am unable to check whether the original work has additional supporting detail that was omitted from the English translation.

The only suggestion I can make is to perhaps run it past an academic who specialises in Islam (maybe someone like Asma Afsaruddin), as they nearly always respond to e-mail enquiries and their addresses can usually be found online.

I may actually attempt this myself. A friend of mine is away in Uzbekistan on holiday right now but knows Malise Ruthven. So maybe I can look into this when he gets back. If I find out anything I will PM you.
 

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