Religion

BrianW said:
You could be right. But given the nature of society, it was scarcely necessary to invent religion in order to abuse kids. Until relatively recently in our history, a father had complete power over his family. The state simply did not interfere. That religion added another layer is a strong possibility. We see it even now in certain closed societies where the 'minister' (to use a neutral term) is held to be above suspicion due to his high social status in that society.
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this is where lord actons words of power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely is never truer
 
Shadz69 said:
Yes you're correct and my point is major religions may have started out as ways to abuse kids and developed from there.
They all have problems when it comes to children.
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I see what you are saying. In fairness I’d agree with BrianW insofar as I feel that religions developed as power structures primarily. They were a way of controlling the masses.
I do agree with you however that certain Christian denominations by their nature of demanding celibacy, which in itself was a control of the church’s wealth, attracted deviants and perhaps nurtured deviant behaviour because of the lack of physical intimacy.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
Perhaps the greens have it right.
Maybe the one true religion is respect the world you live in, and be in balance with your environment, because we’re not as clever as we think we are.
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And the Old Testament tells us to go forth and multiply and it also tells us that humans were given dominium over all the creatures of the world. No wonder the planet is as good as finished.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
As I said previously, we are nought but a virus.
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humans-the-matrix.gif
 
Psychedelic Casual said:
Didn’t Mohammed marry a six year old?
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‘A’isha entered Muhammad’s home as his wife at a tender age; the range of years is given as between six and nine. The marriage was not consummated until she reached puberty…Child marriage was not an uncommon practice in the Arabian peninsula at this time, often being contracted for political purposes between leading families [as this one was].’

Asma Afsaruddin (a reputable academic rather than one of those nebulous ‘Islamic scholars’ with dubious credentials) - The First Muslims pg. 66

Of course, this abhorrent practice persists in parts of the Islamic world, for example, in Afghanistan under the Taliban.
 
A more interesting question is not how religion began (though it is a fascinating one - many started out in opposition to existing power structures) but why it persists as a phenomenon.

A few suggestions:

1. Lots of people still, even now, claim to have religious experiences (individual, mystical, corporate, NDE’s etc.). And without religious experiences, you wouldn’t have religions. In other words, those Pentecostal Snake Handlers obviously think they are on to something.

2. We all seek to transcend our egos. Contemplative practices like meditation and prayer - so embedded in world faiths - can help with that. Of course, a suitable drug or combination of drugs, moments like 93:20, music and art, can induce the same effect.

3. Faith - like conspiracy theories - imposes order and meaning on an otherwise chaotic, random and meaningless universe.In connection with this, Freud and Lucretius both declared that humans created gods out of fear, suggesting that if we believe that gods inflict earthquakes, floods, famine and disease on us, attempts to propitiate them through penitential prayer or sacrifice might make us feel more in control of things. Of course, the stuff to do with the afterlife also helps with fear of death.

I have one last observation: quite a few contributors to this thread seem to equate religion with monotheism.

I would therefore gently remind them that ‘God’ is a not a concern of, off the top of my head and for starters, Buddhism, Jainism, Confucianism, Taoism, Shinto or the Carvaka/Lokayata schools of ancient Indian philosophy.

There is also no scholarly consensus about what ‘religion’ actually is, and therefore likely to be no irreducible essence to the concept.

For more on that, see Wittgenstein’s helpful notion of ‘family resemblance’.
 
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ZenHalfTimeCrock said:
A more interesting question is not how religion began (though it is a fascinating one - many started out in opposition to existing power structures) but why it persists as a phenomenon.

A few suggestions:

1. Lots of people still, even now, claim to have religious experiences (individual, mystical, corporate, NDE’s etc.). And without religious experiences, you wouldn’t have religions. In other words, those Pentecostal Snake Handlers obviously think they are on to something.

2. We all seek to transcend our egos. Contemplative practices like meditation and prayer - so embedded in world faiths - can help with that. Of course, a suitable drug or combination of drugs, moments like 93:20, music and art, can induce the same effect.

3. Faith - like conspiracy theories - imposes order and meaning on an otherwise chaotic, random and meaningless universe.In connection with this, Freud and Lucretius both declared that humans created gods out of fear, suggesting that if we believe that gods inflict earthquakes, floods, famine and disease on us, attempts to propitiate them through penitential prayer or sacrifice might make us feel more in control of things. Of course, the stuff to do with the afterlife also helps with fear of death.

I have one last observation: quite a few contributors to this thread seem to equate religion with monotheism.

I would therefore gently remind them that ‘God’ is a not a concern of, off the top of my head and for starters, Buddhism, Jainism, Confucianism, Taoism, Shinto or the Carvaka/Lokayata schools of ancient Indian philosophy.

There is also no scholarly consensus about what ‘religion’ actually is, and therefore likely to be no irreducible essence to the concept.

For more on that, see Wittgenstein’s helpful notion of ‘family resemblance’.
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You recommended me a few books (that I admittedly haven’t read yet!) last year. One was around the idea of non-theism within some ancient religions/non-religions.

I remember we talked about the Rig Veda in Hinduism where acceptance of possible non-theism was a key part of early Hinduism 1,500 years before the story of Christ was written.

A lot of the Eastern religions are more about understanding humans, the world, the universe than they are strictly about us all being here because of a god. I think we just lack being exposed to those religions because of where we are in the world and how strict on theist and creationist thought the Abrahamic religions that surround us are.

Saying that, earlier Islam in Central Asia (Uzbekistan) had a Renaissance of mathematical and scientific thought (as well as an acceptance of drinking alcohol) before the European Renaissance occurred. In fact it was the Silk Road, that I mentioned a few pages ago, that brought the already existing Asian Renaissance to Europe and brought us out of the Dark Ages. A lot of Islam today concentrates far less on mathematical and scientific thought (and there’s a lack of acceptance of drinking alcohol, I’ve found my Muslim mates who do drink are all secular/non-practising Muslims… which itself is frowned upon within Islam).
 
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Psychedelic Casual said:
You recommended me a few books (that I admittedly haven’t read yet!) last year. One was around the idea of non-theism within some ancient religions/non-religions.

I remember we talked about the Rig Veda in Hinduism where acceptance of possible non-theism was a key part of early Hinduism 1,500 years before the story of Christ was written.

A lot of the Eastern religions are more about understanding humans, the world, the universe than they are strictly about us all being here because of a god. I think we just lack being exposed to those religions because of where we are in the world and how strict on theist and creationist thought the Abrahamic religions that surround us are.

Saying that, earlier Islam in Central Asia (Uzbekistan) had a Renaissance of mathematical and scientific thought (as well as an acceptance of drinking alcohol) before the European Renaissance occurred. In fact it was the Silk Road, that I mentioned a few pages ago, that brought the already existing Asian Renaissance to Europe and brought us out of the Dark Ages. A lot of Islam today concentrates far less on mathematical and scientific thought (and there’s a lack of acceptance of drinking alcohol, I’ve found my Muslim mates who do drink are all secular/non-practising Muslims… which itself is frowned upon within Islam).
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Religion can be a good thing, even though much of what is written is utter tripe.
It is a tool to 'keep us in our place'.
However it does give us a sense of community, a moral code and comfort in difficult times.
Some fabulous architecture only exists because of 'gods' and religion too.
As for me, I think the nearest 'religion' to reflect my beliefs would be Tao/Daoism.
 
I was cycling through Europe last summer and I found comfort from the countless crosses of Jesus which were along the roadside. I am not religious as such but it was nice to know he was there watching over those who travelled by.
 
It occurs to me that religion is a bit like a library or indeed the internet.
What you get out of it is largely down to you.
And just as some people don't need a library or the internet, some people don't need any form of religion.
I wish I could articulate my real feelings about religion. I don't have the necessary command of words, but I do find certain churches deeply spiritual places. Others are just like an office or a pub. Nothing special.
Ultimately, I believe there is something 'bigger' than us. But I also feel we can no more fully understand it than an ant can understand me.
Religion is capable of being abused because all humans are fallible and a minority are wicked.
 
Psychedelic Casual said:
Saying that, earlier Islam in Central Asia (Uzbekistan) had a Renaissance of mathematical and scientific thought (as well as an acceptance of drinking alcohol) before the European Renaissance occurred. In fact it was the Silk Road, that I mentioned a few pages ago, that brought the already existing Asian Renaissance to Europe and brought us out of the Dark Ages. A lot of Islam today concentrates far less on mathematical and scientific thought (and there’s a lack of acceptance of drinking alcohol, I’ve found my Muslim mates who do drink are all secular/non-practising Muslims… which itself is frowned upon within Islam).
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Been preoccupied with other things for a few days so no time to reply until now. Haven't read it yet though it looks like it is very well-written but a while back I acquired a book on this: S. Frederick Starr's Lost Enlightenment. Hopefully, will get around to it soon.
 
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