Russian invasion of Ukraine

cookster said:
These "talks" won't end well for Ukraine. If the allies fold (and I'm not including the US in that) and Russia gets to keep the current occupied territories, its a win for Putin and he'll go back when the Trump presidency is over.
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The notion that that Ukraine is being excluded from these talk offends all sense of decency and fairness. Whatever the outcome will almost certainly be presented to Ukraine as a fait accompli in the capacity of a subservient actor.

And the last part of your post is absolutely correct. If people cannot see what Russia is, after all the evidence they have been presented with this century, and not just in relation to Ukraine, then they never will. These cunts have been waging war on us and our way of life throughout this period, and continue to do so in earnest. And they aren’t going to stop.

It will be interesting to see how Starmer, Macron and Merz in particular react to any such fait accompli. I’ve not been especially critical of Starmer in general terms since he took office, and I certainly don’t subscribe to the notion that he’s doing a terrible job, especially in international affairs, however this could be a tipping point for me if he just capitulates to a carve up between Trump and Putin.

And what about European sanctions? Are they similarly going to be discarded, or materially watered down? Absolute fucking madness if they are.

This is about far more than Ukraine, as important as it is. These cunts will not stop, and we enable them at our peril.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
What do you mean by elites?
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Big business bosses, government mandarins etc. The power behind DAVOS.
The Ukraine war is an inconvenience to their not so hidden agenda of making the rich richer and making democracy serve the rich.
I have come to believe during this war that democratic freedom is extremely limited and can only tinker around the edges.
The main instrument of control? Government debt.
 
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Day 1264 Review - The day Trump finally got his way and threw Ukraine under a bus.
www.dailykos.com

Ukraine Invasion Day 1,264: Same RU demands, Different day

Krasnov again capitulates to the Russians who are offering the same demands on a different day. Stage Two of the proposal is the one that will clinch the Nobel Prize. Are the talks in Alaska because Trump will sell it back to the Russians. if UKR...
www.dailykos.com
 
BlueAnorak said:
Big business bosses, government mandarins etc. The power behind DAVOS.
The Ukraine war is an inconvenience to their not so hidden agenda of making the rich richer and making democracy serve the rich.
I have come to believe during this war that democratic freedom is extremely limited.
Click to expand...
An emboldened and vitalised Russia would prove an even bigger inconvenience to that agenda.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
The notion that that Ukraine is being excluded from these talk offends all sense of decency and fairness. Whatever the outcome will almost certainly be presented to Ukraine as a fait accompli in the capacity of a subservient actor.

And the last part of your post is absolutely correct. If people cannot see what Russia is, after all the evidence they have been presented with this century, and not just in relation to Ukraine, then they never will. These cunts have been waging war on us and our way of life throughout this period, and continue to do so in earnest. And they aren’t going to stop.

It will be interesting to see how Starmer, Macron and Merz in particular react to any such fait accompli. I’ve not been especially critical of Starmer in general terms since he took office, and I certainly don’t subscribe to the notion that he’s doing a terrible job, especially in international affairs, however this could be a tipping point for me if he just capitulates to a carve up between Trump and Putin.

And what about European sanctions? Are they similarly going to be discarded, or materially watered down? Absolute fucking madness if they are.

This is about far more than Ukraine, as important as it is. These cunts will not stop, and we enable them at our peril.
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I think European leaders will accept what Ukraine will accept. If Ukraine fights on then Europe will continue its support, but Ukraine losing territory was always likely in any settlement to end the war. Putin desperately needs something to show for three and a half years of war and a million casualties and Ukraine lost control of some of its eastern provinces back in 2014. I don’t see a new border based around that fault line being a deal breaker for Ukraine.

What we don’t know is the state of the frontline for either side or the true state of the Russian economy and how much pressure is on Putin to do a deal given the original aim was the whole of Ukraine and any settlement based on an eastern portion of Ukraine is a failure for Russia. Ukraine coming out of this largely intact and still existing as a sovereign country is a win for them given no one gave them a chance back in 2022.

Europe has to remain vigilant, though. Keep the pressure on with sanctions and ensure Ukraine is fortified militarily and countries like Poland and Finland will keep building their forces given their distrust of Russia has never gone away.

EU membership is also a must for Ukraine given that carries a security guarantee. NATO is preferable, but something is better than nothing and I wouldn’t trust the Americans going forward anyway.

Putin is the key, though. All discussions and talks to date have not included Putin, so if Putin shows up for these talks it may finally indicate a realisation that Russia isn’t going to win this war on the battlefield.

The Russian media on the state of their economy. It isn’t great.

 
With all the wars the USA has singlehandedly won, I'd have expected them to have had this all wrapped up by now.
 
BlueAnorak said:
I would like to think Europe will tell Trump to fuck off and step up to the plate, but I doubt it.
European sanctions must not be removed and the money has to be given to support the rebuilding of a truely democratic Ukraine.
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Give Ukraine all that cash if Trump comes out and starts saying Ukraine should give up ground, let’s see those usa arms manufacturers turn down cash for arms, not a chance.
 
The ever reliable Phillips OBrien on Trump's ongoing betrayal of Ukraine

Putin will sit there with a win-win. Either he gets lots of Ukrainian territory, a permanently insecure Ukraine on his border that he can attack again after rebuilding his military, and the relaxation of sanctions, or, he can continue the war with the US moving on from Ukraine and Europe as is.

Trump and Putin have played pro-Ukraine supporters for fools, and sadly they have gotten what they always wanted.


phillipspobrien.substack.com

Despicable: Very Effectively Done

Trump Hands Putin A Win-Win Scenario, Which Was Always The Plan
phillipspobrien.substack.com phillipspobrien.substack.com
 
BobKowalski said:
I think European leaders will accept what Ukraine will accept. If Ukraine fights on then Europe will continue its support, but Ukraine losing territory was always likely in any settlement to end the war. Putin desperately needs something to show for three and a half years of war and a million casualties and Ukraine lost control of some of its eastern provinces back in 2014. I don’t see a new border based around that fault line being a deal breaker for Ukraine.

What we don’t know is the state of the frontline for either side or the true state of the Russian economy and how much pressure is on Putin to do a deal given the original aim was the whole of Ukraine and any settlement based on an eastern portion of Ukraine is a failure for Russia. Ukraine coming out of this largely intact and still existing as a sovereign country is a win for them given no one gave them a chance back in 2022.

Europe has to remain vigilant, though. Keep the pressure on with sanctions and ensure Ukraine is fortified militarily and countries like Poland and Finland will keep building their forces given their distrust of Russia has never gone away.

EU membership is also a must for Ukraine given that carries a security guarantee. NATO is preferable, but something is better than nothing and I wouldn’t trust the Americans going forward anyway.

Putin is the key, though. All discussions and talks to date have not included Putin, so if Putin shows up for these talks it may finally indicate a realisation that Russia isn’t going to win this war on the battlefield.

The Russian media on the state of their economy. It isn’t great.

Click to expand...

I’m in broad agreement with what you’ve posted here. I accepted some time ago that military and territorial reality will need to be faced up to, and that will necessarily entail Russia keeping most of what it has stolen, if some sort of cessation of warfare on the frontline is to be arrived at. It won’t amount to a cessation of hostilities though. Russia will carry on being cunts, because that is what they do.

Like you say, Europe needs to look to the future following any such ‘settlement’ to take every available step to ensure this does not happen again. This will entail measures that are military, political and financial. My worry is that Russia is allowed back into the fold by osmosis in terms of things like sanctions being eased in Europe (we absolutely cannot rely upon America in that regard) and participation in international sporting events. I, for one, would not engage in any way in a World Cup that Russia was invited to participate in. I would simply ignore it.

I would also want the £300 billion that has been seized from the murdering thieves to be deployed in rebuilding Ukraine, along with further support from the west. This will then serve as a telling juxtaposition to the situation in the land that Russia has stolen the cost of which rebuilding will be huge, and as you say, Russia will not be as well placed to undertake such an exercise, which I expect will be a bigger one than faced in Ukraine, given the toll in stealing that land has taken on its infrastructure, given the MO deployed.
 
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