Russian invasion of Ukraine

twosips said:
Just welled up ffs. This and the russians gathering for the protests. Bravey on all sides, and none of them should have to go through this just because of some fucking insane megalomaniac.
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wolviedinho said:
The west will not put soldiers on the ground as they fear putin starting a nuclear war. This illegal war in Ukraine is already lost. Putin has everyone running scared.
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Kirkstall Blue said:
It’s the end game I fear, he’s sent in the elite troops and the children are terrified unless you can threaten Russia with a nuke then you have no chance of saving your country. He now wants all nuclear weapons out of Europe or else!! he can use cruise missile but we can’t
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We should do the exact oposite of what ever Putin demands.
 
west didsblue said:
Bollocks.
There was an agreement in place that Russia would respect Ukraine's borders when Ukraine gave up its USSR nukes.
Any agreement with Russia isn't worth the paper it's written on, and NATO was never the real issue for Putin. It was and always has been his dreams of a Russian Empire.
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And how would it then be worse than it is now? Maybe we'd be in the same boat anyway, but it would have made his invading more difficult to justify and if it had just delayed the inevitable for another few years, at least he'd then be older, and potentially less powerful. And who knows, maybe would have been overthrown in the meantime.

A (say) 10-year deal to not join NATO - as far as I can see - had few downsides. It may not have worked, in which case we'd be where we are now. But it may have worked.
 
west didsblue said:
A valid point that NATO should have just given in to Russian aggression??
I think you've forgotten that Russia don't respect weakness. They launched a biological weapons attack in the UK and we did next to fuck all. Appeasement doesn't work.
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Lazy thinking. Putin won't be around forever.
 
bluesteel said:
He’d have done it anyway. The only way this wasn’t kicking off if is he’d have got his legal guarantee that Ukraine would never join NATO.
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west didsblue said:
Bollocks.
There was an agreement in place that Russia would respect Ukraine's borders when Ukraine gave up its USSR nukes.
Any agreement with Russia isn't worth the paper it's written on, and NATO was never the real issue for Putin. It was and always has been his dreams of a Russian Empire.
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Bluesteel, you need to look up Alexander Dugin and his political theories because Putin is a known believer in them and he spelled that out in his speeches before.

Putin does not believe Ukraine or Belarus are real countries, he thinks they are part of Russia that was opportunistically cut off the motherland in the fall of the USSR and that the future of the Russian state depends on them being reunified.

It has nothing to do with NATO. He told us this directly, to our faces and you’re still trying to overthink ways in which it’s NATOs fault.

In fact, you may have heard of this article that was accidentally published on Russian state news website that was meant to be kept back until the war was won.



This thread has the full translation but I’ve quote tweeted the two relevant ones. It’s not about NATO and it never has been.

 
Heidenreich said:
I was watching a Politic show in Germany and a Politician told that the USA were lobbying Ukraine to join NATO and EU in 2008. France and Germany blocked the Approval due to fear of war
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Tbh that's my take on it too. The Russians don't want nato on their doorstep. I don't think it's fair to say it was caused by the West or by America because the Ukrainian people democratically elected to be closer to Europe than Russia. Putin himself said (in his propaganda piece on Ukraine a couple of years ago) the people of Ukraine must decide themselves if they want to continue the historic kinship between Russia and Ukraine.

I think an analogy is Russia wanting nukes next door to America, in Cuba. It doesn't play well with the superpowers. (Though Cuba wasn't a democracy and didn't really choose to be closer to Russia)

I think Germany had accepted that world view, ie that Russia wouldn't want / allow Ukraine to be part of nato and for Russia to have the enemies nukes on their doorstep. In effect it might cause a war itself.

So the west have pushed/brought/encouraged democracy too close to Russia (in Russian eyes) and so Russia have invaded them.

So what do you think?
 
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