Scottish independence

[cibaman]

There are some posts on the 'Vow' signed by the three party leaders doing the rounds on the Cameron thread ,with some posters suggesting increased devolution for Scotland is not possible or 'fair' without addressing the West Lothian question.
Whilst in theory this might sound fair, there was no mention of any 'conditionality' in the Vow.
This Vow must have had a major impact on influencing the vote and whilst not legally enforceable, surely a promise signed by three party leaders has to be 'morally' binding.
If these three leaders Cameron, Milliband and Clegg cannot deliver collectively the votes required in Parliament to effect legislation to give the increased powers to Scotland ( without settlement of the West Lothian issue or any other conditionality) as they PROMISED , then surely all three of them should resign and a new referendum he held?

I agree. I thought "The Vow" was a huge mistake, but having made it they have to stick by it. A deceit of that magnitude would make the expenses scandal seem like an administrative error.

 

[Ducado]

There are some posts on the 'Vow' signed by the three party leaders doing the rounds on the Cameron thread ,with some posters suggesting increased devolution for Scotland is not possible or 'fair' without addressing the West Lothian question.
Whilst in theory this might sound fair, there was no mention of any 'conditionality' in the Vow.
This Vow must have had a major impact on influencing the vote and whilst not legally enforceable, surely a promise signed by three party leaders has to be 'morally' binding.
If these three leaders Cameron, Milliband and Clegg cannot deliver collectively the votes required in Parliament to effect legislation to give the increased powers to Scotland ( without settlement of the West Lothian issue or any other conditionality) as they PROMISED , then surely all three of them should resign and a new referendum he held?

I agree. I thought "The Vow" was a huge mistake, but having made it they have to stick by it. A deceit of that magnitude would make the expenses scandal seem like an administrative error.

Again people are missing the point of all this, in order to enact the "Vow" a new act will have to be put before Parliament, English MP's are not going to allow it through without some fundamental concessions, Tory MP's will be content with the answer to the West Lothian question, i.e stopping Scottish MP's voting on English matters, Labour are in a blind panic , because it will effectively squeeze them out of power in England, so they are trying to kick it into the long grass with a proposed committee after the next general election, the Tories sensing the panic are upping the anti.

Cameron has played an absolute blinder here and I suspect that in the end Labour will have to concede

 

[Len Rum]

There are some posts on the 'Vow' signed by the three party leaders doing the rounds on the Cameron thread ,with some posters suggesting increased devolution for Scotland is not possible or 'fair' without addressing the West Lothian question.
Whilst in theory this might sound fair, there was no mention of any 'conditionality' in the Vow.
This Vow must have had a major impact on influencing the vote and whilst not legally enforceable, surely a promise signed by three party leaders has to be 'morally' binding.
If these three leaders Cameron, Milliband and Clegg cannot deliver collectively the votes required in Parliament to effect legislation to give the increased powers to Scotland ( without settlement of the West Lothian issue or any other conditionality) as they PROMISED , then surely all three of them should resign and a new referendum he held?

I agree. I thought "The Vow" was a huge mistake, but having made it they have to stick by it. A deceit of that magnitude would make the expenses scandal seem like an administrative error.

Again people are missing the point of all this, in order to enact the "Vow" a new act will have to be put before Parliament, English MP's are not going to allow it through without some fundamental concessions, Tory MP's will be content with the answer to the West Lothian question, i.e stopping Scottish MP's voting on English matters, Labour are in a blind panic , because it will effectively squeeze them out of power in England, so they are trying to kick it into the long grass with a proposed committee after the next general election, the Tories sensing the panic are upping the anti.

Cameron has played an absolute blinder here and I suspect that in the end Labour will have to concede

Sorry mate, but you're missing the point.
You are correct to say that English MPs are not going to allow the "Vow" to pass through Parliament without the "West Lothian" issue being resolved.
BUT the "Vow" was made and signed by all three party leaders WITHOUT ANY CONDITIONALITY being attached to the "Vow".
So if the three party leaders who made the UNCONDITIONAL "Vow" cannot collectively deliver it by a majority vote of their parties in Parliament they have to resign and arrange for a new referendum to take place.
However this is not going to happen so I can see more trouble brewing in Scotland if Devomax is not delivered in the promised timescale.
It seems to me that, without going into it in detail, the resolution of the West Lothian issue I.e. English MPs only voting on English issues will in fact ultimately lead to the eventual break up of the Uk.

 

[Mr Ed (The Stables)]

Allowing 16 and 17 years to vote was a scandal which I hope is never repeated on these shores ever again.

 

[Wilf Wild 1937]

Glad it's all over. If they kick up a fuss again maybe they get another vote in 307 years time although I'd be tempted to tell them
forget it they're had their chance, As for "vows", what "vows"? A lot for shite gets promised during elections, it's rarely delivered.
Scotland will get extra powers when they are agreed upon nationally. I agree with a federal Britain and especially like the idea of
Devo Manc. Until that is all agreed the Jocks can get stuffed. Rushed legislation tends to be the wrong legislation. I'm relieved we
get to keep Trident based at Faslane, our seat on the Security Council and the oil. I'm also extremely glad, as I mentioned, that it
means it is likely Manchester will do well out of the resulting process of change. Other than what I've mentioned I've little interest
in Scotland or the Scots. I'm glad that they've voted to stay part of our "family of nations" but they can't expect special favours.
Well they might expect them but they won't get them. "Morality" doesn't come into politics: Alex Salmond also made promises he
couldn't have kept if he had won.

 

[Len Rum]

Glad it's all over. If they kick up a fuss again maybe they get another vote in 307 years time although I'd be tempted to tell them
forget it they're had their chance, As for "vows", what "vows"? A lot for shite gets promised during elections, it's rarely delivered.
Scotland will get extra powers when they are agreed upon nationally. I agree with a federal Britain and especially like the idea of
Devo Manc. Until that is all agreed the Jocks can get stuffed. Rushed legislation tends to be the wrong legislation. I'm relieved we
get to keep Trident based at Faslane, our seat on the Security Council and the oil. I'm also extremely glad, as I mentioned, that it
means it is likely Manchester will do well out of the resulting process of change. Other than what I've mentioned I've little interest
in Scotland or the Scots. I'm glad that they've voted to stay part of our "family of nations" but they can't expect special favours.
Well they might expect them but they won't get them. "Morality" doesn't come into politics: Alex Salmond also made promises he
couldn't have kept if he had won.

There needn't be a problem - the extra devo powers for Scotland are passed into legislation within the timescale PROMISED by the three party leaders. Chris Grayling the Tory Minister writing in the Telegraph today has stated this must happen.
Hopefully the West Lothian question can be resolved within the same timescale. If not then so be it, it would have to be delayed until after the General election.

 

[Ducado]

Glad it's all over. If they kick up a fuss again maybe they get another vote in 307 years time although I'd be tempted to tell them
forget it they're had their chance, As for "vows", what "vows"? A lot for shite gets promised during elections, it's rarely delivered.
Scotland will get extra powers when they are agreed upon nationally. I agree with a federal Britain and especially like the idea of
Devo Manc. Until that is all agreed the Jocks can get stuffed. Rushed legislation tends to be the wrong legislation. I'm relieved we
get to keep Trident based at Faslane, our seat on the Security Council and the oil. I'm also extremely glad, as I mentioned, that it
means it is likely Manchester will do well out of the resulting process of change. Other than what I've mentioned I've little interest
in Scotland or the Scots. I'm glad that they've voted to stay part of our "family of nations" but they can't expect special favours.
Well they might expect them but they won't get them. "Morality" doesn't come into politics: Alex Salmond also made promises he
couldn't have kept if he had won.

There needn't be a problem - the extra devo powers for Scotland are passed into legislation within the timescale PROMISED by the three party leaders. Chris Grayling the Tory Minister writing in the Telegraph today has stated this must happen.
Hopefully the West Lothian question can be resolved within the same timescale. If not then so be it, it would have to be delayed until after the General election.

Either way Labour are going to get destroyed because of this issue and the Lib Dems need too be clear as well

 

[Paulpowersleftfoot]

Glad it's all over. If they kick up a fuss again maybe they get another vote in 307 years time although I'd be tempted to tell them
forget it they're had their chance, As for "vows", what "vows"? A lot for shite gets promised during elections, it's rarely delivered.
Scotland will get extra powers when they are agreed upon nationally. I agree with a federal Britain and especially like the idea of
Devo Manc. Until that is all agreed the Jocks can get stuffed. Rushed legislation tends to be the wrong legislation. I'm relieved we
get to keep Trident based at Faslane, our seat on the Security Council and the oil. I'm also extremely glad, as I mentioned, that it
means it is likely Manchester will do well out of the resulting process of change. Other than what I've mentioned I've little interest
in Scotland or the Scots. I'm glad that they've voted to stay part of our "family of nations" but they can't expect special favours.
Well they might expect them but they won't get them. "Morality" doesn't come into politics: Alex Salmond also made promises he
couldn't have kept if he had won.

There needn't be a problem - the extra devo powers for Scotland are passed into legislation within the timescale PROMISED by the three party leaders. Chris Grayling the Tory Minister writing in the Telegraph today has stated this must happen.
Hopefully the West Lothian question can be resolved within the same timescale. If not then so be it, it would have to be delayed until after the General election.

Either way Labour are going to get destroyed because of this issue and the Lib Dems need too be clear as well

Let's hope Milliband is still the labour leader at the next election
He's great

 

[Len Rum]

Glad it's all over. If they kick up a fuss again maybe they get another vote in 307 years time although I'd be tempted to tell them
forget it they're had their chance, As for "vows", what "vows"? A lot for shite gets promised during elections, it's rarely delivered.
Scotland will get extra powers when they are agreed upon nationally. I agree with a federal Britain and especially like the idea of
Devo Manc. Until that is all agreed the Jocks can get stuffed. Rushed legislation tends to be the wrong legislation. I'm relieved we
get to keep Trident based at Faslane, our seat on the Security Council and the oil. I'm also extremely glad, as I mentioned, that it
means it is likely Manchester will do well out of the resulting process of change. Other than what I've mentioned I've little interest
in Scotland or the Scots. I'm glad that they've voted to stay part of our "family of nations" but they can't expect special favours.
Well they might expect them but they won't get them. "Morality" doesn't come into politics: Alex Salmond also made promises he
couldn't have kept if he had won.

There needn't be a problem - the extra devo powers for Scotland are passed into legislation within the timescale PROMISED by the three party leaders. Chris Grayling the Tory Minister writing in the Telegraph today has stated this must happen.
Hopefully the West Lothian question can be resolved within the same timescale. If not then so be it, it would have to be delayed until after the General election.

Either way Labour are going to get destroyed because of this issue and the Lib Dems need too be clear as well

You seem very excited about 'Labour being destroyed' rather than getting the constitutional issues resolved within the constraints set by leaders promises for Scotland and timescales for legislation on the wider UK issues.
If Labour is 'destroyed' so what?
The process has started and will continue.
Everyone can have a vote on it next May.

 

[Ducado]

There needn't be a problem - the extra devo powers for Scotland are passed into legislation within the timescale PROMISED by the three party leaders. Chris Grayling the Tory Minister writing in the Telegraph today has stated this must happen.
Hopefully the West Lothian question can be resolved within the same timescale. If not then so be it, it would have to be delayed until after the General election.

Either way Labour are going to get destroyed because of this issue and the Lib Dems need too be clear as well

You seem very excited about 'Labour being destroyed' rather than getting the constitutional issues resolved within the constraints set by leaders promises for Scotland and timescales for legislation on the wider UK issues.
If Labour is 'destroyed' so what?
The process has started and will continue.
Everyone can have a vote on it next May.

Not at all, but if you are interested in politics as I am you can see a smart move by the Tories either way Labour are backed into a corner and from what I see are not explaining themselves very well