Scottish independence

[Ronnie the Rep]

Millions of Russians despise the man, his policies led directly to a coup to oust him by his own party, which in turn led the break up of the Soviet Union and years of misrule by the drunken oaf Yeltsin.

When the Soviet Union disintegrated, the economy collapsed, to be replaced by crony capitalism, war, terrorism and gangsterism.

I think it is fair to say that many millions of Russians would happily see him roast in hell.

And millions think he did the right thing

Outside of Russia, yes.

Gorbachev was always more popular abroad than he was at home. Inside Russia, even those broadly sympathetic, see him as a sad figure, none of the things he tried to achieve came about. Glasnost led to dissolution and failure and the destruction of the things he wanted to save.

History has not been kind and with good reason, we are all still living with the consequences of his failure.

My use of Gorbachev was just to illustrate that whatever view the Russians have of him, none of them are stupid for holding that view, and all Tories are not stupid either

 

[The perfect fumble]

Ronnie the Rep wrote:
all Tories are not stupid

True, but it helps.

 

[Ronnie the Rep]

Ronnie the Rep wrote:
all Tories are not stupid

True, but it helps.

The only truth is that all politicians are twats

 

[Wilf Wild 1937]

I fully expected a "NO" vote in the region of 65%-35% at the start of the campaign.

I supported the Union because I felt it was beneficial for all parties and (as an Englishman) I felt proud to be British.

I agreed with the straight option of "IN" or "OUT" and did not want "Devo Max" on the ballet paper as I think the Scots
are already doing well out of the Union and strongly feel that we shouldn't be offering them anymore to the detriment
of England, Wales & Northern Ireland.

I think that the "NO" Campaign has been very poorly fought and has been entirely negative to Independence rather than
positive to the Union.

The fact that the polls are now saying it's too close to call isn't too much of a surprise. In Scotland this was always a "Heads" and
"Hearts" issue and immediately before the polls you would expect people to express what they feel in their hearts and not in their
heads especially given the lousy "NO" campaign. On the day I would have expected this to reverse and "NO" to win by a
comfortable majority although not 65%-35%.

The game changer for me has been how the 3 unionist parties have reacted to the polls. Their pitiful attempts to bribe the
electorate in Scotland will if anything encourage people to vote "YES". I still expect a "NO" vote but its going to be very close
and it could be "YES". Either way the union is now finished be it on the 18th September or sometime in the next 20 years.
Throwing more money at Scotland, if they remain, will ultimately lead to English secession either as one country, probably
outsIde of the EU, or as a number of separate "city states" within it.

Cameron, Miliband & Clegg should all hang their heads in shame. Their lack of nerve has killed the Union.

 

[scotty123]

I fully expected a "NO" vote in the region of 65%-35% at the start of the campaign.

I supported the Union because I felt it was beneficial for all parties and (as an Englishman) I felt proud to be British.

I agreed with the straight option of "IN" or "OUT" and did not want "Devo Max" on the ballet paper as I think the Scots
are already doing well out of the Union and strongly feel that we shouldn't be offering them anymore to the detriment
of England, Wales & Northern Ireland.

I think that the "NO" Campaign has been very poorly fought and has been entirely negative to Independence rather than
positive to the Union.

The fact that the polls are now saying it's too close to call isn't too much of a surprise. In Scotland this was always a "Heads" and
"Hearts" issue and immediately before the polls you would expect people to express what they feel in their hearts and not in their
heads especially given the lousy "NO" campaign. On the day I would have expected this to reverse and "NO" to win by a
comfortable majority although not 65%-35%.

The game changer for me has been how the 3 unionist parties have reacted to the polls. Their pitiful attempts to bribe the
electorate in Scotland will if anything encourage people to vote "YES". I still expect a "NO" vote but its going to be very close
and it could be "YES". Either way the union is now finished be it on the 18th September or sometime in the next 20 years.
Throwing more money at Scotland, if they remain, will ultimately lead to English secession either as one country, probably
outsIde of the EU, or as a number of separate "city states" within it.

Cameron, Miliband & Clegg should all hang their heads in shame. Their lack of nerve has killed the Union.

Summed up to perfection, you cannot bribe a nation once the momentum to independence is on a roll, the 3 of them should be ashamed, I am fully expecting a YES vote now and good luck to them, the only proviso is that in 20 years time they don't come back cap in hand to Westminster when all their giddiness has worn off

 

[Blue Til Death]

Despite all the waffle and media hype, the NO vote will romp it, much to my dismay it has to be said, hope I am wrong.

 

[scotty123]

Despite all the waffle and media hype, the NO vote will romp it, much to my dismay it has to be said, hope I am wrong.

Just can't see it mate and once the 3 stooges have put in an appearance tomorrow they will wind the Jocks up even more especially Gideon, there will be a poll over the weekend and I fully expect a 5% lead for the YES camp

 

[Len Rum]

You've stated this many times and I really don't understand the logic.

Cameron - disastrous No campaign by Tories, not fighting for the Union with any conviction, devo max not on voting paper, timing of vote terrible. Now handing over the reins to Brown.To lose the Union is a massive loss of prestige to Britain and he would have overseen it. As Adam Boulton said it will be written on his tombstone.
Milliband - has really been invisible in the campaign and has been complacent and yet his party has more to lose politically than the Tories.i.e labour out of power for the foreseeable future.

I think Cameron and the Tories will, from a political point of view, more than see the silver side of that particular cloud as Labour lose 40 seats.

As stated, the Tories would have needed no coalition this time around and the results of 4 post war elections would have changed.

My point was about Cameron.
I don't doubt that the Tories will see the 'silver side' of the 'cloud', and for many there isn't a 'cloud' at all.
However for Cameron personally there is no 'silver side'. The 'cloud' of losing Scotland from the Union is one of national humiliation and massive loss of prestige for the UK. To have overseen this as PM is in itself a reason for resignation. To have it happen on your watch following a disastrous campaign (see my post above) is doubly damning.
If YES happens and he doesn't go voluntarily ,the shitstorm that will follow will force him out anyway.
And many in the Tory party will still be delighted at their electoral windfall in England.

 

[Blue Til Death]

Despite all the waffle and media hype, the NO vote will romp it, much to my dismay it has to be said, hope I am wrong.

Just can't see it mate and once the 3 stooges have put in an appearance tomorrow they will wind the Jocks up even more especially Gideon, there will be a poll over the weekend and I fully expect a 5% lead for the YES camp

Can see your point and logic mate but once they get hold of the pen and realise what this will entail for them ultimately, I honestly believe they will take the NO option. Salmond is a great manipulator and to be fair his comeback was impressive against the black eyebrowed one but for me not enough. I will go for a 9 or 10% victory for the NO campaign.
We will find out soon enough that's for sure..!

 

[malg]

Despite all the waffle and media hype, the NO vote will romp it, much to my dismay it has to be said, hope I am wrong.

I have spoken with 4 mates up there today, and 3 family members, and all are voting no. They have many reasons, including being proud to be British (I know the English press won't like that view), hating Salmond, believing they are better being part of the Union, and not believing that the 'Yes' camp have made a good case.

One of the guys is from Aberdeen, where he works in the oil industry. He said most of those he speaks to are voting Yes, including the English guys who live and work there! I couldn't believe the bit about the English guys, but he said they were definitely voting that way.

Why would you be dismayed if they voted 'No'?