Scottish Independence

[Ban-jani]

Ok i see. With you replying to my posts, arguing something that i am not claiming, while ignoring what i Am claiming, you can see why i'd find it confusing.

So we agree, the 2019 GE doesnt give them a mandate, other than symbolic interpretation, but they do have one, out of the 2016 pledge/result and the fact that parliament passed it, which is, after all, the law.

You see the part of my post when I say “my argument is against those saying...” and “people using the GE...” well that is me not claiming you’re saying these things but people generally.

If I was accusing you of claiming something I would haves used “you”.

Edit: and no, I don’t believe that every single thing the SNP pass in Holyrood should be implemented by the UK government.

 

[hgblue]

Okay so when do you want it take place? Whilst we’re negotiating our future agreement with the EU? Once we’ve implemented the agreement?

Having referenda every 5 years on the same issue isn’t British politics.

I’m saying I would take the toxicity out of this issue by giving this power to the Scottish Parliament from the next Scottish Parliamentary election. The people of Scotland would then go into this election in the certain knowledge that if they vote SNP a referendum will follow. In those circumstances, if the SNP gets enough votes they can call a referendum. My warning is that if a UK government simply tells the Scots that they can’t have a referendum this will be used by the SNP to create even more resentment and will ultimately be counter productive.

 

[Gabriel]

I’m saying I would take the toxicity out of this issue by giving this power to the Scottish Parliament from the next Scottish Parliamentary election. The people of Scotland would then go into this election in the certain knowledge that if they vote SNP a referendum will follow. In those circumstances, if the SNP gets enough votes they can call a referendum. My warning is that if a UK government simply tells the Scots that they can’t have a referendum this will be used by the SNP to create even more resentment and will ultimately be counter productive.

Isn’t there a danger in making such a proviso? The next Holyrood election would then become about whether Scots have the right to hold a referendum to determine their own future, not whether Scotland should be independent, so framed like that people might be inclined to vote for that opportunity.

 

[Ban-jani]

I’m saying I would take the toxicity out of this issue by giving this power to the Scottish Parliament from the next Scottish Parliamentary election. The people of Scotland would then go into this election in the certain knowledge that if they vote SNP a referendum will follow. In those circumstances, if the SNP gets enough votes they can call a referendum. My warning is that if a UK government simply tells the Scots that they can’t have a referendum this will be used by the SNP to create even more resentment and will ultimately be counter productive.

But my point is we cannot be doing that whilst we are negotiating with the EU.

My other point is we shouldn’t be holding referendums every few years. The next one is in a generation, as that woman said in 2014.

 

[hgblue]

Isn’t there a danger in making such a proviso? The next Holyrood election would then become about whether Scots have the right to hold a referendum to determine their own future, not whether Scotland should be independent, so framed like that people might be inclined to vote for that opportunity.

No, the power will be given to the Scottish Parliament regardless of the result. It will then be up to the Scottish people to decide whether they want to exercise that right by voting for the SNP.

 

[Deleted member 77198]

I

it depends on two things. The credibility of the independence proposal and just how bad Brexit/Johnson uk turns out to be.

I think their preparation towards the 2014 Referendum was excellent.

https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

They put the hard work in and looked at the ins-and-outs of everything.

But people still voted NO.

Johnson won’t allow it to be even voted on in the Commons for a few years yet and by then, as you say, a good Brexit could sway a lot where the SNP might not even push for it because their popularity may diminish.

 

[Gabriel]

No, the power will be given to the Scottish Parliament regardless of the result. It will then be up to the Scottish people to decide whether they want to exercise that right by voting for the SNP.

Then why not give it the power now?
Would the Scottish Parliament retain the right or have to return it to Westminster if not used?

 

[Fame Monster]

I appreciate that. Mandate however is not a matter of opinion. Not yours, mine, Nicola's nor Boris'. Ultimately, they have one, because they got elected on the pledge of a referendum (in 2016), and because parliament passed it. The rest, really does not matter.

Mandate is a matter of opinion. And the opinion you're referring to is that of Holyrood. But Holyrood isn't supreme on these matters, Westminster is by virtue of the Scottish people voting to remain in the UK just 5 years ago.

You can't just have a referendum on a 300 year old union every 2 and a half years if the SNP win a majority in Scotland in the General or Scottish Election. There needs to be popular support for Scexit alone and that may arrive when the Brexit process is over but that's a long way off yet.

 

[Coatigan]

I’m saying I would take the toxicity out of this issue by giving this power to the Scottish Parliament from the next Scottish Parliamentary election. The people of Scotland would then go into this election in the certain knowledge that if they vote SNP a referendum will follow. In those circumstances, if the SNP gets enough votes they can call a referendum. My warning is that if a UK government simply tells the Scots that they can’t have a referendum this will be used by the SNP to create even more resentment and will ultimately be counter productive.

Again, i agree, as with your previous post(s). im just saying, that has already happened, in 2016. And yes, agree also on dangers of the continued toxicity.

 

[Deleted member 77198]

But my point is we cannot be doing that whilst we are negotiating with the EU.

My other point is we shouldn’t be holding referendums every few years. The next one is in a generation, as that woman said in 2014.

Referendums should have generation gaps. Otherwise their impact gets diluted or there are calls for Refs for varieties of things. It could get daft.

However, the political climate is a generation apart from when they voted in 2014 and by 2021 it will be further away still. So I kind of sympathise with the Scots on this.

There will be YES voters from 2014 who want a new Ref now too.