Scottish Independence

[Coatigan]

They’re two sides of the same coin.

UKIP are their closest political match.

I think you are mistaken.

I have no problem, i really don't, with your views on Scotland however extreme they might come off, intentionally or not. Or in particular the SNP, heck i have plenty critical to say often. But i think you are making a very surface level link (to UKIP), and it is incorrect. I have no intention of 'defending' the snp, i certainly am no fan of nationalism myself, i condemn the type you describe. But you do seem genuine and intelligent enough for discussion, so i'll offer more/other perspective, take what you want from it, in relation to your UKiP comparison specifically.

I've read both manifestos. Over a number of elections. The parties are nothing alike. As i pointed out elsewhere, SNP have been governing Scotland for the best part of two dacades, and have a range of inclusive progressive policies, that are difficult to disagree with. They are (the policies rather than the party) imho more realistic versions of the Scottish Greens' ones. The party is the closest to what labour represented back when it used to be a credible party for the people. Which is why they have hoovered up almost all their voters. Yes their core thing is Independence. That will never change. But they portray that as their believed method by which to deliver their promises, rather than their end goal. I'm not saying i believe that, but that is what they clain to stand for. Just fyi, the greens also advocate independence, they do have a handful of seats in SP, nobody gives them a hard time for being nationalist cunts.

I'm not going to bother with UKiP, their manifesto is shorter than this post, and i think we all know what it is. Which is why they disappeared ovenight post brexit. the SNP have been about long before indyref, and grew much stronger after it. Partly, because the independence movement has grown, yes, but actually largely, because after indyref, those that would have voted for them as a party, but didnt because they disagreed with independence, started voting for them thinking that issue was dealt with. Till brexit came and the SNP weaponised it, and again lost some of those votes. Either way, they'l be about for a while.

I think Rascal has nailed it above. I'll add to that that people often mistakenly refer to them as the Scottish Nationalist Party. it is not. it is National. Now in no way am i claiming they arent in fact nationalists as such. but there is a nuance, to what comes first. And it isnt anti-english btw. It takes a nationalist that considers Westminster English rather than of the UK to think that. Although i'l admit, the SNP MPs do often get on my tits. But then i find the whole westminster model chauvinistic and lame at times.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Wow.

Congratulations on totally missing what I’ve said yet again.

Give my head a wobble?

Learn to understand a fucking basic sentence.

Let’s take baby steps, as you need it...

UKIP are their closest POLITICAL MATCH.

What do you think that means?

match means, and I quote, 'equal to something in quality or strength'.

Now will you please give your head a wobble as you are embarrassing yourself.

 

[Coatigan]

My point was on the benefits Scottish citizens have over your average English citizen. By me saying they’re ungrateful for this, I in no way meant those that didn’t advocate independence.

As I’ve said, and I’m not doing a Sepp Blatter here, I know Scottish lads that work in England and they think a lot of it is pathetic.

I went to Edinburgh last year and the first pub we went in had a Scottish bloke from centuries ago, in a framed picture and a poem in front of him about killing the English, over the top of the bar - no idea who that guy was.

We’re nearly in 2020, why is this still a thing?

Nationalist marches through the streets this very week.

These people are similar to the English nationalists and should be treated as such.

Im sure we do (have benefits). the SNP have used tax raising powers to implement them right across levels and ages of society. we also pay more for them. I'm happy to. and the rest of the Union benefits from their share too.

I dont know the pub you are referring to, but cmon, its Edinburgh! it's a tourist theme park, most of it. it is there for the Americans and other tourists, i doubt it is there to deter the English approaching the bar. I dare bet you ut is run by an english person.

 

[Rascal]

Robbie Burns perhaps

SCOTS, wha hae wi’ WALLACE bled,
Scots, wham BRUCE has aften led,
Welcome to your gory bed,
Or to Victorie!


Now’s the day, and now’s the hour;
See the front o’ battle lour;
See approach proud EDWARD’S power—
Chains and Slaverie!


Wha will be a traitor knave?
Wha can fill a coward’s grave?
Wha sae base as be a Slave?
Let him turn and flee!


Wha, for Scotland’s King and Law,
Freedom’s sword will strongly draw,
FREE-MAN stand, or FREE-MAN fa’,
Let him on wi’ me!


By Oppression’s woes and pains!
By your Sons in servile chains!
We will drain our dearest veins,
But they shall be free!


Lay the proud Usurpers low!
Tyrants fall in every foe!
LIBERTY’S in every blow!—
Let us Do or Die!

 

[Saddleworth2]

Robbie Burns perhaps

SCOTS, wha hae wi’ WALLACE bled,
Scots, wham BRUCE has aften led,
Welcome to your gory bed,
Or to Victorie!


Now’s the day, and now’s the hour;
See the front o’ battle lour;
See approach proud EDWARD’S power—
Chains and Slaverie!


Wha will be a traitor knave?
Wha can fill a coward’s grave?
Wha sae base as be a Slave?
Let him turn and flee!


Wha, for Scotland’s King and Law,
Freedom’s sword will strongly draw,
FREE-MAN stand, or FREE-MAN fa’,
Let him on wi’ me!


By Oppression’s woes and pains!
By your Sons in servile chains!
We will drain our dearest veins,
But they shall be free!


Lay the proud Usurpers low!
Tyrants fall in every foe!
LIBERTY’S in every blow!—
Let us Do or Die!

hmmmm...

written of course about a period of history when the United Kingdom didn't exist and the two nations were at war. To be fair we get enough of that up here without the English joining in!

 

[Gabriel]

Im sure we do (have benefits). the SNP have used tax raising powers to implement them right across levels and ages of society. we also pay more for them. I'm happy to. and the rest of the Union benefits from their share too.

I dont know the pub you are referring to, but cmon, its Edinburgh! it's a tourist theme park, most of it. it is there for the Americans and other tourists, i doubt it is there to deter the English approaching the bar. I dare bet you ut is run by an english person.

Certainly couldn' t have been the Canons' Gait on the High Street; I mean they even had a 'lock-in' for Nigel Farage when he visited.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

No but they will have at least 25 years of oil revenue so I somehow doubt that their economy will crash

Extintion rebellion won't allow them to use such filthy,
carbon spewing fossil fuels.

 

[Coatigan]

I don't think the Scottish Conservatives will lose all their seats unless there is an extremely hard Brexit, but if Northern Ireland ends up getting the best of both worlds in any such deal, the SNP will certainly seek to exploit that to its advantage: The Vow and the promise of fairness etc.

I think they'l lose a fair few if not most.

The 2017 election was for the Tories in Scotland what 2015 was for the SNP - the stars aligning.

In 2015, SNP had the pick of independence wishful being disappointed, protest votes of those feeling let down by other main parties making and then quickly forgetting big promises, and those that Would vote snp but don't because they are against independence, thinking the issue was put to bed switching over.

In 2017, the Tories had the protest vote to the SNP. That earlier landslide election win, many of their MPs (fair few first timers) acted like twats in Westminster, with the selfies, the bravado, etc etc. Pissed a few right off. Jumping the indyref2 gun straight after brexit backfired too. Some thought it was done, didn't want to revisit it, and some that did, were just so fatigued. It was way to soon.
On top of that, lib-dems lost all credibility in the 2015 elections, Kezzia Dugdale openly advocated tactical voting to keep the snp out even at the expense of her own struggling party. And Ruth Davidson, fresh off the back of some honest and passionate very well performed anti-brexit campaigning offered something a bit new. With her supposed 'scotland first' attitude, she emphasised the 'Scottish' in Scottish Conservatives and convinced(tricked) a few that she wouldn't always toe the party politics from Westminster, but would prioritise Scotland's interests.

Theresa May might have got that election call wrong overall, but she absolutely nailed the timing in Scotland.

I personally can't see the Tories retaining many of those seats. Not all will be lost to SNP either, some will go to the lib-dems.
But as always in UK politics, nothing ould surprise me. (apart from when it does).

 

[Two Gun Bob]

Fair shares of what mate? Inward investments? Tax? Money from the EU? Infrastructure spend? Or does the entire argument revolve round the Scottish governments priority of spending on bus passes and prescriptions?

Now you know I love the Scots people immensely Mr Worth as I have sung of their praises many a time on this board even enjoying holidays in the Pool and breaking sweat in Rosyth and the Faslane. I even had a brother who turned into one and nayer returned back home to his kith and kin but I do see the differences on spending and we are not all created equal. Maybe the barnet forumula was too generous or should I say too disingenuous to us hard working English voters or someone somewhere was buying someone off but I want what the other Kingdom members receive. You forgot the education and social care bit. I have to go to work now to keep the oils of industry turning but I have to set off early and walk as the bus fares down here remain prohibitive.

 

[FlemishDuck]

Yes there is, anyone who supports nationalism is a ****.

Granted, Scotland is "sepperatism for the sake of internationalism" whereas Brexit is more "splendid isolationist". For me the "little Englander" term more denotes a mentallity to reject for example European internationalism in favour of a more domestic "island-ish" identity, granted that this would be on top of and enforce a view of Brits just wanting to do bloody everything differently even when it comes to damn units of measurement or what lane you drive on, i guess you could also call it "special Britain". In that regard then the Scots are not "little scots" because the incentive does not relate to opportunist isolationism but rather their wish not to be forced out of a larger family of nations.

There is certaintly a very wide and significant gradation to nationalism, ranging in it's most extreme to a ideoligy that started 2 world wars and killed more than 100 million last century up to the often very reasonable wishes of self determination of people feeling in some way opressed like say "the American revlolution". I'd still warn against the dangers of natioalism because it's easily done wrong with potential disasterous results, however as comming from a people who have needed to break themselves free from some form of opression i cannot comdemn all forms of seperatism neither. There are also many nations that manage to be "reasonably nationalistic" in an arguable way and for what regards Scotland imho their seperatism is for the right reason as long as the UK doesn't perceive Scotland as a "Equal partner in the Union" and/or Brexit pulls them out of the EU against their wish.

I can even make a distinction here as to Scottish nationalism just "how far" it should or should not go. Yes to seeking independance trough legalist means, and no to organising millitia's for example well i guess one gets that point. Because sepperatism in Great Britain might potentionaly also lead to idiots picking up guns and sniping eachother at the border.