Shamima Begum

The supreme court said that she couldn't return to fight her case at her appeal it didn't say anything to about her right to an appeal. I'm not sure why you have gone off one about "if there is evidence", if the sources that informed the newspaper reports are credible and meet evidential thresholds then there will be evidence.

There have been numerous examples of kids growing up in refugee camps and similar conditions living on the margins of society that went on to commit atrocities. And there is a variety of serious literature on the matter that refers to specifically to these camps and methods to prevent radicalisation.

That’s more of a concern than a frail young woman worn down by multiple pregnancies and infant deaths who appears to be quite simple and lacking the persuasive skills to radicalise others.
Again this is your interpretation, and thankfully, it's just another fringe view that has been rejected. The supreme court confirmed the clear and obvious
reason to deny this terrorist entry to the UK, and that is that her so called
human rights do not trump the safety of the British populace. They also rapped the appeal court for going beyond its remit and bypassing legislation
set by a British Home Secretary, it is not the function of courts to override
decisions taken by elected members of parliament, another welcome ruling.
And if you believe this vicious woman's claims to have had multiple kids that
somehow starved to death, yet she looks plump and healthy, and have never been seen, other than a bundle of rags, that's another down to you. Frail young woman my arse, and any individual growing up in these camps turning into jihadis is not something anyone can control, other than ensuring they never enter the country, we can not solve the worlds problems.
 
....it has been a sustained attack since the early 1970s when they sought to break the post WW2 consensus. They have broken that consensus and now they are moving in for the kill and want the total destruction of anything that is remotely progressive. They use culture wars, they use Begum, they use poverty porn, they use racism, they use discrimination, they use antisemitism, they will use anything that is needed to make sure Capitalism succeeds. The effects of the 2008 crash brought a wavering in the belief of capitalism since then the attacks have increased as they are desperate to make sure it is seen as the only viable system and anyone who gets in their way will be destroyed, The gammons are justuseful idiots who have been propagandised into being the capitalists shock troops, they are the ones who with their sad beliefs they are patriots are the shields for the excesses of capitalists. It has also been aided by people supposedly on the left, the Blairites, those so desperate for power they took the capitalist shilling, now the likes of Starmer taking the corporate bribes to ensure capitalism is safe.

British values have been replaced by capitalist values, we are no longer a compassionate country, we are a country that goes by capitalist values and the like of Begum will pay the price.
The publications of Cambridge economist Ha Joon Chang on recent economic history are relevant to the points you make here. Chang is an economist who favours capitalist over socialist macroeconomic theory but is not as enthusiastic about neoliberalism, an ideology that has held sway over the last few decades in many parts of the world.

Chang basically demonstrates in his writing that economic growth in the advanced capitalist countries has actually been lower over the last 40 years (when various versions of free market capitalism have held sway: Thatcherism, 'Trickle-down' Reaganomics, Clinton's Market Globalism and Tony Blair's Third Way) than it ever was between 1950 and 1970 (when 'socialist' Keynesian economics ruled the roost), or even during the late 70's period of stagflation (which you mentioned above) which resulted in the monetarist policies of Friedman and Hayek getting adopted.

Let’s run with an example. Thatcher got elected on the back of the Saatchi slogan 'Labour Isn't Working'. This is because there was, at that time, one million unemployed in the UK. For Friedman and Hayek (the economists whose policies provide the foundation for neoliberalism), the focus of macreconomic theory should be on controlling inflation. So Thatcher raised interest rates. This should lower demand as it then costs more to borrow money. Unfortunately, those higher interest rates attracted foreign capital, driving up the value of the British pound and making British exports uncompetitive.

The result was a huge recession. Unemployment soared to 3.3 million people, a significant chunk of British manufacturing was destroyed, and many traditional industrial centres were devastated.

Reaganomics didn't work either. As in the UK, interest rates were jacked up in an attempt to reduce inflation. Between 1979 and 1981, interest rates more than doubled from around 10% to over 20% per year. A significant proportion of the US manufacturing industry, which had already been losing ground to Japanese and other foreign competition, could not withstand such an increase in financial costs. The traditional industrial heartland in the Midwest was turned into 'the Rust Belt'.

Neoliberals subscribe to what is known as the D-L-P formula (Deregulation of the economy, Liberalisation of trade and industry, Privatisation of state owned enterprises). Financial deregulation in the US at this time laid the foundation for the unstable and morally egregious financial system we have today, which involves hostile takeovers, asset stripping, and so on. To avoid this fate, firms at the time of Reagan had to deliver profits faster than before, otherwise impatient shareholders would sell up, reducing the share prices and thus exposing the firm to a greater danger of takeover. The easiest way for a company to deal with this was through downsizing, reducing the workforce, cutting overheads and minimizing investments, even though these actions diminish the competitiveness of the business in the longer term.

Here's a damning statistic from Chang: '...distributed profits as a share of total US corporate profits stood at 35-45 per cent between the 1950's and 1970's. Between 2001 and 2010, the largest US companies distributed 94% of their profits [to shareholders] and the top UK companies 89% of their profits.'

And here's another: '...in the UK, the average period of shareholding, which had already fallen from 5 years in the mid 1960's to two years in the 1980's, plummeted to about 7.5 months at the end of 2007.'

The D-L-P formula has also proved disastrous for developing economies too. One of the latest examples is India (often held up as a neoliberal economic success story) where 250,000 farmers have committed suicide because of what the novelist Arundhati Roy has called the 'Privatisation of Everything.' For the back story on that, read her recent book Capitalism: A Ghost Story.

Let's also consider the instability of the financial markets that has been a consequence of the deregulation of them.

Start of 1990's - banking crises in Sweden, Finland and Norway
1994/95 - 'Tequila' crisis in Mexico
1997 - crises in 'miracle' economies in Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia and South Korea
1998 - Russian crisis
1999 - Brazilian crisis
2002 - Argentina
2008 - We all know about that one

Virtually no country was in banking crisis between the end of the Second World War and the mid-1970's, when the financial sector was more regulated. Between the mid-1970's and the late 1980's, the proportion of countries who experienced a banking crisis rose to 5 to 10%, weighted by their share of world income. The proportion then shot up to around 20% in the mid-1990's. The ratio then briefly fell to zero for a few years in the mid-2000s, but went up again to 35% following the 2008 global financial crisis.

There's one other interesting angle on this.

In his global history of ethics The Quest for a Moral Compass, Kenan Malik observes that:

‘By 2008…the possibility of change, at least in the way that Marx would have understood it had become negligibly small. The depth of the economic crisis led to talk of ‘a crisis of capitalism’. And yet there was no political challenge to capitalism. Workers’ organisations had been destroyed, the left had imploded, as had the idea that there could be an alternative to the market system. The resurrection of Marx challenged none of this. Those who turn to Marx these days look upon him not as a prophet of capitalism’s demise but as a poet of its moral corruption.’

So given that socialism is no longer regarded as a viable alternative to neoliberal ideology, what does that leave?

Curiously, it leaves religion.

Several modern philosophers/left wing theorists (Slavoj Zizek, Alain Badiou and Terry Eagleton), seem to be drawing on theology in an attempt to revivify socialism in some of their publications. Here's the cover to one of them.

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In reply to a private e-mail enquiry I sent him about this, one eminent teacher of Philosophy and Theology at a UK university put it this way:

“You are right to detect a strange shift – radical European philosophers drawing on Christian ideas to critique capitalism. This has opened up new ground – there have always been Christian critiques of capitalism, but it now seems possible to work on neutral philosophical ground, engaging with secular thinkers.”

Those in the vanguard of the phenomenon known as Engaged Buddhism are also taking a similar line.

The following is taken from Matthieu Ricard's extraordinary, multidisciplinary study Altruism: The Power of Compassion to Change the World. Just the very title is an indication that we are a long way from the naive assumptions about human nature indulged in by supporters of free-market capitalism.

'Much economic policy-making from that angle is based on the model of homo economicus - the view that humans are narrowly individualistic, rational but self-interested creatures.'

Unsurprisingly, hundreds of pages of Ricard's study are devoted to demolishing this model, and along the way the author draws on a vast range of multidisciplinary research to do so.

'But my concern here is not with these studies. Suffice it to say that even Adam Smith, the father of the market economy, was not nearly so extreme as his successors in taking the aforementioned view of humanity.

In a work which has not attracted quite so much attention as The Wealth of Nations, Smith stated: 'To restrain our selfish, and to indulge our benevolent affections, constitutes the perfection of human nature; and can alone produce among mankind that harmony of sentiments and passions in which consists in their whole grace and harmony.'


In other words, any theory of economics that excludes altruism is fundamentally incomplete and diminished.

But anyway, here is Ricard, writing in 2013:

'We have already seen how in the United States the richest 1% of the population currently owns 40% of the country's wealth, compared with just 13% of it twenty-five years ago...such a level of inequality is morally unjustifiable and is a scourge on society. What's more, contrary to the claims of neoliberals, the wealth at the top of the ladder remains there, and does not 'trickle down' to the bottom to create a more dynamic society for all.

As Joseph Stiglitz explains, inequality is both the cause and consequence of the failure of the political system, and it contributes to the instability of the financial system, which in turn contributes to increased inequality. It is this vicious cycle that has thrown us into the abyss, and we will only be able to emerge from it by reforming the system.'


And there's more:

'The divide in the United States is widening faster and faster. For thirty years, 90% of Americans saw their income increase by just 15%, while those who make up the wealthiest 1% experienced a leap of 150%. Between 2002 and 2007, this 1% of the population monopolized over 65% of national income gains. While the best-off became considerably richer, the situation for the majority of Americans got worse.

In Europe, although income inequality is overall lower than it is in the United States, it is on the rise. The most equal countries are those in Scandinavia, where the richest 10% earn just six times more than the poorest 10%.

Research carried out by economists at the IMF suggests that almost everywhere in the world, income inequality slows growth and triggers financial crises...The 2014 report from the OECD concludes that the gap between rich and poor is at its highest level in 30 years in most OECD countries. Today, the richest 10% of the population in the OECD area earn 9.5 times more than the poorest 10%...This long-term trend increase in income inequality has curbed economic growth significantly, chiefly because of families with low incomes not being able to invest in their education.'


Ricard then goes on to discuss China ('an oppressive totalitarian regime - notably, and unusually at the same time as being a capitalist state since the 1990's')where 'the poorest people's wages increased proportionately even more so than those of the richest. Yet immense fortunes have been amassed among the wealthiest, often thanks to nepotism within the leadership and due to wholesale corruption.'

'What's more, in all countries studied, in times of economic crisis, the elite classes almost always come out alright, while people with low incomes are affected disproportionately. The wealthiest also benefit much more than anyone else when the economy recovers. Women for their part earn just 10% of global income, despite carrying out two-thirds of humankind's work.

Tax and protection schemes, which play a major role in easing the levels of inequality brought about by free market capitalism, have in many countries ceased to be effective over the last fifteen years, since libertarian capitalism aims at reducing the role of government and at reducing social welfare as much as possible.'


The section I have been quoting from finishes with the words of Warren Buffet: 'There's been class warfare going on. And my class has won.'

Interestingly, Ricard is a Tibetan Buddhist who a) serves as a translator for the Dalai Lama and b) has been described as 'the happiest man alive' as a result of neuroscientific studies of the unusual brain activity that decades of meditation seem to have produced in him.

"The scans showed that when meditating on compassion, Ricard’s brain produces a level of gamma waves – those linked to consciousness, attention, learning and memory – ‘never reported before in the neuroscience literature’...the scans also showed excessive activity in his brain’s left prefrontal cortex compared to its right counterpart, allowing him an abnormally large capacity for happiness and a reduced propensity towards negativity."

Maybe he knows something that we don’t.

My other reason for mentioning Ricard is because I don't agree with your point that we are no longer a 'compassionate country'. This tendency has only been suppressed. Ricard spends several chapters of his book drawing attention to the fact that empathy and altruism, or helping behaviour if you like, are products of evolution by appealing to a range of studies that highlight this aspect of human nature (children exhibit it spontaneously and so do many species of animals).

There's one other point that you made that I would also take issue with, namely, that you don't seem to acknowledge the presently fissiparous nature of right-wing politics. I have been wondering to myself whether the present friction within, say, the Republican party in the USA and the Conservatives in the UK, has come about because two toxic versions of capitalism are rubbing up against each other.

On the one hand, there is the neoliberal variety, as described above and advocated by, say, Hayek (much admired by Thatcher), Friedman, and the philosopher Robert Nozick, but also practised by both New Labour and the EU up to a point.

The fact that the ideology driving it demands the free movement of labour across borders has, in my view, provoked tribalistic concerns about foreigners and a fear of 'the Other' instilled by evolutionary psychology (hence all the racists who voted 'Leave'), as well as more rationally grounded anxieties about the consequences of untrammelled immigration.

In turn this has given rise to another toxic version of capitalism based on a nationalistic form of identity politics. John Major envisaged a more benign version of this in his famous speech based on "long shadows on county grounds, warm beer, invincible green suburbs, dog lovers and pools fillers and – as George Orwell said – 'old maids bicycling to holy communion through the morning mist'."

I suspect that when those Tories who subscribe to this pastoral version of Britishness sing 'Jerusalem' (whilst failing to note that the second verse is replete with Freudian sexual symbolism) they have something like this is mind. It's certainly a lot different to those more lurid patriotic fantasies festering in the imaginations of fellow travellers like the supporters of Tommy Robinson.

So there's plenty of scope for friction. And that's before you even get to the popular resentment of what is perceived to be an an out-of-touch, liberal elite.

It's a shame that these two versions of capitalism are in the ascendant right now as the latter one is a cure that is worse than the disease in my view. But although capitalism has been and still is rampantly exploitative, I don't see this as something inevitable. I am probably naive but I do think a more ethical form of capitalism is possible.
 
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How about the overseas operations bill that would protect rogue service men from war crimes proceedings?

Who is saying she should be absolved of crimes? She was 19 when stripped of citizenship, if she has committed serious crimes and is convicted then she will be in prison for a very long time. She would likely never have children and be a powerful reminder of the fate that befalls on jihadi brides. Or she can stay in the camp grow bitter and radicalise others or escape with other women when the opportunity presents itself.
She committed atrocities in another country, just if you were to import 10 pounds of heroin into Singapore or Thailand, you would be tried there, and,
justifiably, be hanged for it. It would be no good telling them you were groomed, coerced, didn't know what you were doing, and can I please go back to Blighty because I'm frightened here.
 
I am not siding with her,

I am siding with the millions of people that this could happen to because this has happened to her.

Its just another nudge towards a RW totalitarian state. I told you I do not trust the RW in this country at all, they do not care about rights they have never cared about rights, they care about capitalism. Begum is a tool that is being used by capitalists to make sure their world is safe from any threat. This is about a small cabal of super rich controlling the narrative to make sure that people adhere to their way of thinking. It shows that because i have taken a contrarian line and I am suddenly a Begum supporter with an agenda. No I am fucking not a Begum supporter, i am not a supporter of terrorism, but i am also not a supporter of a young girl being used by people to create a narrative that could well affect millions of people in this country,

My agenda is your rights, my rights, everyone's rights. the rights the capitalist elites do not want you or anyone to have and are using Begum to make a precedent for removing rights from anybody who threatens their hegemony.

This young lady made a huge mistake as at a time in her life when she was most vulnerable. If she had been convinced to join a pedophile group would she be pilloried? No she would have been classed as a victim. Our RW press and government are doing what they have always done using their propaganda for their own devices.
 
Trautmann was given a chance to make amends

Begum will not because she is a tool for the hatemongering right to spread their poison. She is at the end of the day just another victim of the western imperialism driven by the capitalist greed that helped create the monster they now fear.. The very same capitalists who now portray her as the enemy.
I'm afraid your world just centres on your obsession with capitalism and a
laughably quaint love of communism mate. If this topic were about underpants
you'd be telling us how evil plutocrats have forced us all into wearing boxers.
 
She committed atrocities in another country, just if you were to import 10 pounds of heroin into Singapore or Thailand, you would be tried there, and,
justifiably, be hanged for it. It would be no good telling them you were groomed, coerced, didn't know what you were doing, and can I please go back to Blighty because I'm frightened here.
The big problem with this is that she was under the age of consent.
 
The main thing that it all hangs on is that to take part in a hearing she wanted to come back to the UK and have her say in court. The camp where she is do not allow lawyers into the camp nor is there the facility for her to appear remotely as its a 3rd world war zone. For me I'd be ok if she could take part remotely but if even that is denied her it seems that British "justice" isn't all that.
The SC liken it to someone whose case rests on the testimony of a witness who's died. It's not fair, but what can you do?

Well, you can't bring someone back from the dead, but that's where the similarity ends.
 
what crimes can she be charged with?
As I know nothing about Syrian law I couldn’t say. If they have a law about membership of a proscribed terrorist organisation that would be an obvious one. As I said, as Syria is a failed state, it’s not going to happen and ultimately when it settles down there it’s much more likely that foreigners with no right to be there will be deported to their country of origin, and in Begum’s case we will end up with her whatever the government says or does. As someone said earlier, they’re playing to the gallery at the moment and the usual suspects on here are lapping it up.
 
Why is Begum's plight to be given more precedence than the safety of law abiding, British citizens? Nobody has come up with a justifiable argument.
Because many are not concerned with the welfare of British citizens at all,
it's all about the evils of capitalism, laced with the usual hatred of the UK government.
 

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