Shamima Begum

[Vic]

The people are the state and the state works for the people, and the majority opinion is that she should not return to a country that she has rejected, chosen to disavow, chosen to reject, whose ethics, morals and rights she's turned her back on in favour of those of a regime our own state abhored and does not endorse.

So the question I pose to those people defending her is why is protecting the rights of one individual who did not care for the rights of others more important than seeing said individual stand trial at those who were directly affected by her actions, when she chose to no longer be protected by the courts that would have otherwise defended her?

Whilst engaging, supporting and co-operating, willingly, with the acts of the Islamic State, she no longer considered herself a British citizen. And as the Supreme Court just stated "the right to a fair trial does NOT trump all other considerations, such as the safety of the citizens"

Why is Begum's plight to be given more precedence than the safety of law abiding, British citizens? Nobody has come up with a justifiable argument.

Don't put stuff in quotation marks that aren't quotes, even if it's what is implied.

It is a legal no way out situation. You can't have a fair appeal against a government decision to deprive you of citizenship, because you may pose a security risk, but you can't appeal to a court that you're not a security risk because the government says you are a security risk.

 

[LGWIO]

Interesting reading the different views on what is a complex issue covering nationality, human rights, legal interpretations, the notion of British moral values (whatever they may be) and the immotive issue of it involving "a child" (or children now).

As far as I can see we have the rival views of "jus sanguinas" & "jus solis". In this case Shamima was born after the BNA '81 and so cannot benefit automatically from being "born here". It then depends on what her parents status was at the time of her birth. Irrespective of what their status was in the UK at that time, she would have by virtue of their BGD nationality been a de facto BGD national. Therefore revocation of her B/Cit status would not render her stateless.

Obviously we don't know the intricacies of the whole family situation and we then get the "media" putting their slant on things to pander to their own readership.

You then get the whole "moral" issue which is a nightmare and goes to how much we want individual liberties against a state that "says" it is looking out for us.

Not seeking to make light of either issue, but I find it funny that we all think that Shamima needs to return to the UK to get a full and fair hearing, when we know that Anne Sacoolas is so afraid of our "unfair" legal system.....or maybe that is down to the "media" AGAIN?

 

[bluethrunthru]

I’ve been wearing tracksuit bottoms whilst working from home. I feel I should serve time.

Did you see that MP that the Speaker denied asking a question before he took his jumper off and put a jacket and tie on? I was on a teams meeting yesterday starting at 11am. I wet my hair to flatten it down and dropped my dressing gown below shoulder level so my pyjama top looked like a T-shirt. I don't think I have worn formal work wear for over 18 months - not sure what would fit me, what isn't moth eaten and what is so out of date I'll look like Swiss Tony if I wear it

 

[bluethrunthru]

Interesting reading the different views on what is a complex issue covering nationality, human rights, legal interpretations, the notion of British moral values (whatever they may be) and the immotive issue of it involving "a child" (or children now).

As far as I can see we have the rival views of "jus sanguinas" & "jus solis". In this case Shamima was born after the BNA '81 and so cannot benefit automatically from being "born here". It then depends on what her parents status was at the time of her birth. Irrespective of what their status was in the UK at that time, she would have by virtue of their BGD nationality been a de facto BGD national. Therefore revocation of her B/Cit status would not render her stateless.

Obviously we don't know the intricacies of the whole family situation and we then get the "media" putting their slant on things to pander to their own readership.

You then get the whole "moral" issue which is a nightmare and goes to how much we want individual liberties against a state that "says" it is looking out for us.

Not seeking to make light of either issue, but I find it funny that we all think that Shamima needs to return to the UK to get a full and fair hearing, when we know that Anne Sacoolas is so afraid of our "unfair" legal system.....or maybe that is down to the "media" AGAIN?

The main thing that it all hangs on is that to take part in a hearing she wanted to come back to the UK and have her say in court. The camp where she is do not allow lawyers into the camp nor is there the facility for her to appear remotely as its a 3rd world war zone. For me I'd be ok if she could take part remotely but if even that is denied her it seems that British "justice" isn't all that.

 

[dronefromsector7G]

Did you see that MP that the Speaker denied asking a question before he took his jumper off and put a jacket and tie on? I was on a teams meeting yesterday starting at 11am. I wet my hair to flatten it down and dropped my dressing gown below shoulder level so my pyjama top looked like a T-shirt. I don't think I have worn formal work wear for over 18 months - not sure what would fit me, what isn't moth eaten and what is so out of date I'll look like Swiss Tony if I wear it

My team meetings we don’t need to show our faces thank fuck. My manager told us last week an Indian colleague had his camera on for a meeting and was shirtless. He slowly sidled off-camera before putting a shirt on but everyone could see him in the big mirror

 

[shilly8903]

You've convinced me because as we all know, everything a journalist writes is entirely without bias or an agenda in any way. And they always represent the views of their subject 100% faithfully with distortion or misrepresentation.

I’ve just watched most of her interviews I think she is just a little thick, which really does not help her case in getting back to this country she is 100% still radicalised in them videos, it’s a really tough one but she is British at the end of the day. If she has no we’re else to be tried or punished or too live she obviously has to come back. You cannot just make someone stateless how would that even work. Put her on the next rover to Mars.
If she had the brains she could have easily said the right things to be home by now.

 

[shilly8903]

28 Before-And-After Pics Reveal What War Did To The Largest City In Syria

20 photos of the same places, before and after the Syrian war of the city of Aleppo. One of the oldest inhabited cities in the world. In 19 July 2012 an ongoing military confrontation began in Aleppo, the largest city in Syria, as a part of the Syrian Civil War.

www.boredpanda.com

Just been looking at before and after images from the war in Syria, Aleppo is one of the oldest city in the world, looked a great place, what a fuck up.

 

[Rascal]

Why are you siding with someone who cared nothing for the human rights of others? What is the agenda there?

I am not siding with her,

I am siding with the millions of people that this could happen to because this has happened to her.

Its just another nudge towards a RW totalitarian state. I told you I do not trust the RW in this country at all, they do not care about rights they have never cared about rights, they care about capitalism. Begum is a tool that is being used by capitalists to make sure their world is safe from any threat. This is about a small cabal of super rich controlling the narrative to make sure that people adhere to their way of thinking. It shows that because i have taken a contrarian line and I am suddenly a Begum supporter with an agenda. No I am fucking not a Begum supporter, i am not a supporter of terrorism, but i am also not a supporter of a young girl being used by people to create a narrative that could well affect millions of people in this country,

My agenda is your rights, my rights, everyone's rights. the rights the capitalist elites do not want you or anyone to have and are using Begum to make a precedent for removing rights from anybody who threatens their hegemony.

 

[Rascal]

I had an argument with a gammon mate of mine the other day, not about this poor young woman, but about - as he calls them - “fucking unions”.

I tried to explain to him that the reason he is able to take 3 or 4 weeks sickpay every year from his job as a policeman is because of the “fucking unions”. As is his statutory rights to days off each week, holiday pay, safety legislation, employment protection, and a plethora of other rights. He then went on a rant about “being taxed to the nines and his overtime hardly being worth working”. He didn’t see the funny side when I pointed out that his entire salary package was paid for with other peoples taxes and if he wanted to make a stand and resign his job for life and take his chances in the private sector I would be happy to stand shoulder to shoulder with him.

My point is a similar one to yours, namely Gammons, especially ones from working class backgrounds, are often the most reactionary of people and seem to show real fear of any sort of understanding or show of human kindness. I just don’t understand it. It’s frankly very weird and is sadly in evidence on this and many other threads.

Back to Shamima, I am Not afraid of her, I feel desperately sorry for the poor young woman. For me she should be invited back home, to her country of birth, and once she has paid her debt to society , perhaps with some form of community service, she should be housed, fed, kept warm, and provided with an income as, due in no small part to the witch-hunt against her for years now in the press, she will find it very difficult to gain meaningful employment.

Bring the girl home, show the world that British values are worth shouting about, and help her have a good life and decent future.

They have been bombarded by so much RW shit from the media and propaganda from the Tufton Street mafia that it no longer surprises me mate.

There are many factors, the dumbing down of education, the destruction of working class communities and working class industries, the erosion of the welfare state, the underfunding of the NHS, the demonisation of Unions, the painting of the left as Communists, it has been a sustained attack since the early 1970s when they sought to break the post WW2 consensus. They have broken that consensus and now they are moving in for the kill and want the total destruction of anything that is remotely progressive. They use culture wars, they use Begum, they use poverty porn, they use racism, they use discrimination, they use antisemitism, they will use anything that is needed to make sure Capitalism succeeds. The effects of the 2008 crash brought a wavering in the belief of capitalism since then the attacks have increased as they are desperate to make sure it is seen as the only viable system and anyone who gets in their way will be destroyed, The gammons are justuseful idiots who have been propagandised into being the capitalists shock troops, they are the ones who with their sad beliefs they are patriots are the shields for the excesses of capitalists. It has also been aided by people supposedly on the left, the Blairites, those so desperate for power they took the capitalist shilling, now the likes of Starmer taking the corporate bribes to ensure capitalism is safe.

British values have been replaced by capitalist values, we are no longer a compassionate country, we are a country that goes by capitalist values and the like of Begum will pay the price.

It is fucking shameful that our country can treat its citizens so poorly, but then we are no longer citizens of the UK we are citizens of the capitalist elite.

 

[Rascal]

The people are the state and the state works for the people,

That is naivety in the extreme.

The establishment are the state

The people are subjects to the establishment

The establishment are subject to the capitalists

The state works for the capitalists, it does not work for the people. If it did Begum would be brought home and treated like a UK citizen. Then we might see the state working for the people.