Shootings in Paris

[Metal Biker]

Generally they make good bedfellows though

A hatred of different cultures and/or beliefs more often than not, go hand in hand with inherant racism

It's like the folks that think it's acceptable to call the local newsagent the 'paki' shop

Do they believe they are being racist?

Probably not...but to the people who run that shop it would be deemed highly offensive

Don't judge from what words come out of your mouth

Judge by how others would percieve those words

Calling someone a paki and saying religion is bollocks are not analogous.

That was just a parallel example on perceptions...linked only be the subject matter of racism coupled with fear and prejudice against the unknown foreigner and their obvious voodoo religion

I don't think many suggest that there aren't many who see Islam and 'paki' as being two sides of the same coin and have intolerant hatred for both. But is it also ethically correct to assume that a person who is critical of all the Abrahamic religions is doing so out of racial intolerance? Someone saying 'I don't like Islam" isn't saying "I hate all brown people". Continued dialogue will reveal their true intentions but most shut off after the first sentence and make their flawed assumptions, which in turn influence their opinion of that opinion as being something negative.

This is a struggle many atheists face; we've faced little opposition or accusation when criticising Christianity as its perceived as a 'white' religion. But since Christianity and Islam share very similar teachings and atheists are critical of both, most look to how Islam is not followed by people of Caucasian background and focus of the differences between the two races that stereotypically are perceived to choose to follow it.

In other words, it was okay for a white atheist to slag off Christianity because Christians are seen to be mostly white people. But for a white atheist to criticise Islam, a religion followed by those of Middle East and South Asian background, the perception is seen as one rooted in racism. This is a skewed viewpoint.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Calling someone a paki and saying religion is bollocks are not analogous.

Not to you maybe but if I were to walk into a shop owned by a Pakistani and say "You paki bastard, your religion is a load of made up bollocks based on myths about the paedophile Mohammed" I'm not sure the shopkeeper would appreciate the subtle difference. I doubt he'd respond by saying "You're quite at liberty to criticise my religion but I strongly object to your use of the term 'paki bastard'.

I know I can be truculent but that would be pushing it some.

LOL. I had this vision of you being chased round Qatar, in Benny Hill fashion, pursued by outraged shopkeepers and their sons armed with baseball bats and meat cleavers.

 

[IanBishopsHaircut]

Calling someone a paki and saying religion is bollocks are not analogous.

That was just a parallel example on perceptions...linked only be the subject matter of racism coupled with fear and prejudice against the unknown foreigner and their obvious voodoo religion

I don't think many suggest that there aren't many who see Islam and 'paki' as being two sides of the same coin and have intolerant hatred for both. But is it also ethically correct to assume that a person who is critical of all the Abrahamic religions is doing so out of racial intolerance? Someone saying 'I don't like Islam" isn't saying "I hate all brown people". Continued dialogue will reveal their true intentions but most shut off after the first sentence and make their flawed assumptions, which in turn influence their opinion of that opinion as being something negative.

This is a struggle many atheists face; we've faced little opposition or accusation when criticising Christianity as its perceived as a 'white' religion. But since Christianity and Islam share very similar teachings and atheists are critical of both, most look to how Islam is not followed by people of Caucasian background and focus of the differences between the two races that stereotypically are perceived to choose to follow it.

In other words, it was okay for a white atheist to slag off Christianity because Christians are seen to be mostly white people. But for a white atheist to criticise Islam, a religion followed by those of Middle East and South Asian background, the perception is seen as one rooted in racism. This is a skewed viewpoint.

You're still not getting the point

People are tarring all Muslims with the same brush

I myself am an aetheist, so I'm not defending the religion of Islam for love, but for common sense

When the IRA were at their peak did we see all Catholics as potential terrorists?

No we never

So the fact we see all Muslims as such certainly denotes some level of racism..even if it's subconscious

 

[Citizen in Pakistan]

Wibble.

False flags my arse fella.

In the same way you urge us all to start to understand the issues surrounding this one big mess, you do the same and acknowledge you have some fucking idiots going around murdering innocent people all over the world in the so called name of your prophet![/quote]

He has many times on this very thread.[/quote]

yea mate may be the only people who speak the truth in this world are the likes of bush , blair , nethanyahou etc and channels like fox cnn etc as per the terrorist they are as much muslim as much as i am a christian , jew or an atheist , you know how i can say that because i know the teachings of islam, For crtics of islam i think the history of islamic history begain post 9/11 ,Here is a bit of an insight.

<a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age ... e_in_Spain</a>
The golden age of Jewish culture in Spain coincided with the Middle Ages in Europe, a period of Muslim rule throughout much of the Iberian Peninsula. During intermittent periods of time, Jews were generally accepted in society and Jewish religious, cultural, and economic life blossomed[/b].

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/spain_1.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions ... in_1.shtml</a>

Islamic Spain (711-1492)

Islamic Spain was a multi-cultural mix of Muslims, Christians and Jews. It brought a degree of civilization to Europe that matched the heights of the Roman Empire and the Italian Renaissance. (so much for a religion of hate )

<a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in ... amic_world</a>
Scientists within the Muslim ruled areas were of diverse ethnicities. Many were Persians,[2][3][4][5] others were Arabs, Assyrians and Kurds.[4] and Egyptians. They were also from diverse religious backgrounds. Most were Muslims,[6][7][8] but there were also some Christians,[9] Jews[9][10] and irreligious.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.theguardian.com/science/2010/feb/01/islamic-science" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theguardian.com/science/2010 ... ic-science</a>
What is only now becoming clear (to many in the west) is that during the dark ages of medieval Europe, incredible scientific advances were made in the Muslim world.What the medieval scientists of the Muslim world articulated so brilliantly is that science is universal, the common language of the human race.(so much of a 1400 year old backward religion)

if your more interested watch this bbc documentary for a good viewing <a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL41gX0fJng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL41gX0fJng</a>
you would be surprised .

 

[johnmc]

When the IRA were at their peak did we see all Catholics as potential terrorists?

No we never

In northern Ireland many catholics were subject to random searches of their property in the middle of the night without reason, thousands were interogated , and many irish people were incorrectly labelled as terrorists in England. Many many normal everyday Catholics suffered injustices because of the actions of the IRA so I think your statement here is incorrect. Also the IRA's actions, whilst as abhorrent were localised largely to the UK whilst the current issues are worldwide. There aim, whilst no more legitmate, was to create a united ireland and not for everyone to necessarily have the same religious belief.

 

[IanBishopsHaircut]

When the IRA were at their peak did we see all Catholics as potential terrorists?

No we never

In northern Ireland many catholics were subject to random searches of their property in the middle of the night without reason, thousands were interogated , and many irish people were incorrectly labelled as terrorists in England. Many many normal everyday Catholics suffered injustices because of the actions of the IRA so I think your statement here is incorrect. Also the IRA's actions, whilst as abhorrent were localised largely to the UK whilst the current issues are worldwide. There aim, whilst no more legitmate, was to create a united ireland and not for everyone to necessarily have the same religious belief.

That arguement doesn't hold water, that's like saying Palestinians/Israelites suffer in the Gaza Strip

I'm talking about here...on the mainland

Were you looking through your curtains when strangers arrived next door to visit Mrs O'Reilly thinking it was a bomb production factory?

Catholics around the world didn't suffer because of the IRA...can you say the same about Muslims?

The prejudice exists because they are not the same colour and wear different clothes...like it or not

 

[Metal Biker]

That was just a parallel example on perceptions...linked only be the subject matter of racism coupled with fear and prejudice against the unknown foreigner and their obvious voodoo religion

I don't think many suggest that there aren't many who see Islam and 'paki' as being two sides of the same coin and have intolerant hatred for both. But is it also ethically correct to assume that a person who is critical of all the Abrahamic religions is doing so out of racial intolerance? Someone saying 'I don't like Islam" isn't saying "I hate all brown people". Continued dialogue will reveal their true intentions but most shut off after the first sentence and make their flawed assumptions, which in turn influence their opinion of that opinion as being something negative.

This is a struggle many atheists face; we've faced little opposition or accusation when criticising Christianity as its perceived as a 'white' religion. But since Christianity and Islam share very similar teachings and atheists are critical of both, most look to how Islam is not followed by people of Caucasian background and focus of the differences between the two races that stereotypically are perceived to choose to follow it.

In other words, it was okay for a white atheist to slag off Christianity because Christians are seen to be mostly white people. But for a white atheist to criticise Islam, a religion followed by those of Middle East and South Asian background, the perception is seen as one rooted in racism. This is a skewed viewpoint.

You're still not getting the point

Peoole are tarring all Muslims with the same brush

I myself am an aetheist, so I'm not defending the religion of Islam for love, but for common sense

When the IRA were at their peak did we see all Catholics as potential terrorists?

No we never

So the fact we see all Muslims as such certainly denotes some level of racism..even if it's subconscious

And you're still making assumptions about a large group of people.
What ''people''? Racists? Well of course they'll tar muslims with the same brush. But the debate here is that now anyone, of any political thought or mindset who criticises Islam, is being lumped in by self-righteous bigots with the racist bigots.

I get your point, clearly. What i'm pointing out to you is that someone who criticises a religion does not necessarily mean they are doing so out of racist, bigoted reasons, something which it appears you don't believe is humanly possible. This is an attitude and presumption amongst those who mistakenly believe they are countering racism and bigotry need to address and change. If you suspect someone of being racist, challenge them on their views but don't first assume that the person you are speaking to is racist otherwise you'll have your opinion of them influenced.

As i've said, understanding and dialogue is being rejected in favour of false accusations and attempts to demonise others for their differing views and that helps no-one. You cannot automatically assume that someone with a differing view to you is doing so out of hatred based solely on the fact the person making those comments are of a different race or cultural background, without first hearing WHAT that person is saying or understanding their reasons for making those criticisms. Otherwise that is the essence of bigotry. I'm in no way advocating that you should listen to the views of what a racist says once they have been identified as racists, but you should accept the fact that there are some views that people do not share with you that are not based on hatred of the person themselves but of the doctrine they follow.

There are different types of atheist; those who simply reject any notion of religious doctrine and have no opinion of either. Then there are those which are critical of the doctrines which are viewed as regressive and favour a progressive, secular society, then there are the militant atheists who are all of the above and ridicule and mock religion in an attempt to damage its influence and respectability. But a racist can fall into any of these categories or none of them because a racist could class themselves as Christian. I'm guessing you're an atheist who rejects religious doctrine and has no opinion of any of them. Well I and many other atheists are a step up in that we not only reject doctrine but are critical of what it can teach, how it can influence others or be misinterpreted and that a secular society is the way forward for a peaceful, co-operative and respectful humanity. Their racial background does not come into it, despite others claiming otherwise.

 

[johnmc]

When the IRA were at their peak did we see all Catholics as potential terrorists?

No we never

In northern Ireland many catholics were subject to random searches of their property in the middle of the night without reason, thousands were interogated , and many irish people were incorrectly labelled as terrorists in England. Many many normal everyday Catholics suffered injustices because of the actions of the IRA so I think your statement here is incorrect. Also the IRA's actions, whilst as abhorrent were localised largely to the UK whilst the current issues are worldwide. There aim, whilst no more legitmate, was to create a united ireland and not for everyone to necessarily have the same religious belief.

That arguement doesn't hold water, that's like saying Palestinians/Israelites suffer in the Gaza Strip

I'm talking about here...on the mainland

Were you looking through your curtains when strangers arrived next door to visit Mrs O'Reilly thinking it was a bomb production factory?

Catholics around the world didn't suffer because of the IRA...can you say the same about Muslims?

The prejudice exists because they are not the same colour and wear different clothes...like it or not

I take your point, but i'm not twitching my curtains at my muslim neighbours either. Like I say catholics around the world didnt suffer because of the IRA but locally, on the mainland they certainly did. And thats because the terror they were causing was relatively localised. Do you think if the IRA were bombing the USA for example that it wouldnt have occured?

 

[IanBishopsHaircut]

I don't think many suggest that there aren't many who see Islam and 'paki' as being two sides of the same coin and have intolerant hatred for both. But is it also ethically correct to assume that a person who is critical of all the Abrahamic religions is doing so out of racial intolerance? Someone saying 'I don't like Islam" isn't saying "I hate all brown people". Continued dialogue will reveal their true intentions but most shut off after the first sentence and make their flawed assumptions, which in turn influence their opinion of that opinion as being something negative.

This is a struggle many atheists face; we've faced little opposition or accusation when criticising Christianity as its perceived as a 'white' religion. But since Christianity and Islam share very similar teachings and atheists are critical of both, most look to how Islam is not followed by people of Caucasian background and focus of the differences between the two races that stereotypically are perceived to choose to follow it.

In other words, it was okay for a white atheist to slag off Christianity because Christians are seen to be mostly white people. But for a white atheist to criticise Islam, a religion followed by those of Middle East and South Asian background, the perception is seen as one rooted in racism. This is a skewed viewpoint.

You're still not getting the point

Peoole are tarring all Muslims with the same brush

I myself am an aetheist, so I'm not defending the religion of Islam for love, but for common sense

When the IRA were at their peak did we see all Catholics as potential terrorists?

No we never

So the fact we see all Muslims as such certainly denotes some level of racism..even if it's subconscious

And you're still making assumptions about a large group of people.
What ''people''? Racists? Well of course they'll tar muslims with the same brush. But the debate here is that now anyone, of any political thought or mindset who criticises Islam, is being lumped in by self-righteous bigots with the racist bigots.

I get your point, clearly. What i'm pointing out to you is that someone who criticises a religion does not necessarily mean they are doing so out of racist, bigoted reasons, something which it appears you don't believe is humanly possible. This is an attitude and presumption amongst those countering racism need to address and change. If you suspect someone of being racist, challenge them on their views but don't first assume that the person you are speaking to is racist otherwise you'll have your opinion of them influenced.

As i've said, understanding and dialogue is being rejected in favour of false accusations and attempts to demonise others for their differing views and that helps no-one. You cannot automatically assume that someone with a differing view to you is doing so out of hatred based solely on the fact the person making those comments are of a different race or cultural background, without first hearing WHAT that person is saying or understanding their reasons for making those criticisms. Otherwise that is the essence of bigotry. I'm in no way advocating that you should listen to the views of what a racist says once they have been identified as racists, but you should accept the fact that there are some views that people do not share with you that are not based on hatred of the person themselves but of the doctrine they follow.

It's all about tolerance at the end of the day

A lot of intelligent people have faith...Doctors, solicitors etc etc etc...very learned people who are deeply religious

Just because I don't agree with their delusions...doesn't mean they should not be able to practice them or be ridiculed or hated for it...that is their prerogative

The Muslim religion is a popular bad guy at the moment...you could say like judaism before it...people seem to be quick to persecute based on the actions of the few...Although I am a white male I grew up in a multicultural environment...my best friend was an asian lad whose family are muslim...they lead pretty much similar lives to my church of england parents...to compare them to these cold blooded killers is offensive...as it would comparing a catholic family to Martin McGuiness...they are worlds apart.

Like I said...I don't suffer religion...but at the same time I would defend their right to practice their beliefs without fear of persecution...because that's what seperates us from the savages

Anyway...I'm in work...will catch up with this later

 

[Metal Biker]

You're still not getting the point

Peoole are tarring all Muslims with the same brush

I myself am an aetheist, so I'm not defending the religion of Islam for love, but for common sense

When the IRA were at their peak did we see all Catholics as potential terrorists?

No we never

So the fact we see all Muslims as such certainly denotes some level of racism..even if it's subconscious

And you're still making assumptions about a large group of people.
What ''people''? Racists? Well of course they'll tar muslims with the same brush. But the debate here is that now anyone, of any political thought or mindset who criticises Islam, is being lumped in by self-righteous bigots with the racist bigots.

I get your point, clearly. What i'm pointing out to you is that someone who criticises a religion does not necessarily mean they are doing so out of racist, bigoted reasons, something which it appears you don't believe is humanly possible. This is an attitude and presumption amongst those countering racism need to address and change. If you suspect someone of being racist, challenge them on their views but don't first assume that the person you are speaking to is racist otherwise you'll have your opinion of them influenced.

As i've said, understanding and dialogue is being rejected in favour of false accusations and attempts to demonise others for their differing views and that helps no-one. You cannot automatically assume that someone with a differing view to you is doing so out of hatred based solely on the fact the person making those comments are of a different race or cultural background, without first hearing WHAT that person is saying or understanding their reasons for making those criticisms. Otherwise that is the essence of bigotry. I'm in no way advocating that you should listen to the views of what a racist says once they have been identified as racists, but you should accept the fact that there are some views that people do not share with you that are not based on hatred of the person themselves but of the doctrine they follow.

It's all about tolerance at the end of the day

A lot of intelligent people have faith...Doctors, solicitors etc etc etc...very learned people who are deeply religious

Just because I don't agree with their delusions...doesn't mean they should not be able to practice them or be ridiculed or hated for it...that is their prerogative

The Muslim religion is a popular bad guy at the moment...you could say like judaism before it...people seem to be quick to persecute based on the actions of the few...Although I am a white male I grew up in a multicultural environment...my best friend was an asian lad whose family are muslim...they lead pretty much similar lives to my church of england parents...to compare them to these cold blooded killers is offensive...as it would comparing a catholic family to Martin McGuiness...they are worlds apart.

Like I said...I don't suffer religion...but at the same time I would defend their right to practice their beliefs without fear of persecution...because that's what seperates us from the savages

Anyway...I'm in work...will catch up with this later

Neither do I, and you've also pretty much described my upbringing. It's why I have a modicum of respect for Buddhism as it at least teaches spirituality without fear or severe consequence. I'm not attempting to advocate force of change of belief but rather they come to the conclusion naturally, but in a secular society would not hold anything against those who continued to follow a religious belief so long as it focused on the spiritual messages rather than the 'rules of God', which is what it boils down to as most religions can be deliberately discriminatory against those who are not fellow followers of that religion because of a fear of "an imaginary man in the sky"; a concept which has been the direct result of untold misery, suffering, bondage and death for millennia.

I'll defend people's right to believe in what they wish, but when asked I cannot be asked to defend the concepts of what they choose to believe in, especially when my own personal freedoms and egalitarian beliefs come into conflict with it. Other than that, I wish you a pleasant evening at work.