Shootings in Paris

[mancityvstoke]

In northern Ireland many catholics were subject to random searches of their property in the middle of the night without reason, thousands were interogated , and many irish people were incorrectly labelled as terrorists in England. Many many normal everyday Catholics suffered injustices because of the actions of the IRA so I think your statement here is incorrect. Also the IRA's actions, whilst as abhorrent were localised largely to the UK whilst the current issues are worldwide. There aim, whilst no more legitmate, was to create a united ireland and not for everyone to necessarily have the same religious belief.

That arguement doesn't hold water, that's like saying Palestinians/Israelites suffer in the Gaza Strip

I'm talking about here...on the mainland

Were you looking through your curtains when strangers arrived next door to visit Mrs O'Reilly thinking it was a bomb production factory?

Catholics around the world didn't suffer because of the IRA...can you say the same about Muslims?

The prejudice exists because they are not the same colour and wear different clothes...like it or not

I take your point, but i'm not twitching my curtains at my muslim neighbours either. Like I say catholics around the world didnt suffer because of the IRA but locally, on the mainland they certainly did. And thats because the terror they were causing was relatively localised. Do you think if the IRA were bombing the USA for example that it wouldnt have occured?

I get your point but I'm Irish descent as are/were nearly all of my friends at the height of the IRA bombings. Their parents had Irish accents and were from the North and the South. Apart from a few dicks most were against the terrorism and just wanted to live their lives and no one gave them any shit whatsoever. Rusholme had many many Irish families dating back a LONG time. Some lads even got sent away from the troubles to places like Manchester as a few were at my school. They told me some horrendous stories about Northern Ireland and I can only imagine what went on over there.

There were always the staunch anti English brigade but I ignored them and laughed at them. Yes I even said Fuck Off back to Ireland if you hate the English so much. Plastic paddy's some of them ...............which is probably classed as racist now I dunno.

We all lived in relative harmony, Black, White (Irish and English) , Asian etc. The Asian lads who worked in the restaurants were proper funny and great lads. I don't know whether they were Muslim or not and I didn't give a shit. All I cared about was how we got on and had a laugh.

likewise I didn't care who was Catholic or Protestant.

I certainly don't look at someone and say THEY ARE A TERRORIST just because of how they dress or speak.

I mean , how the fuck do you know? Most Asians in Rusholme are lovely people.

There are twats about of every colour. Not every person who dresses a certain way is a twat or a terrorist though.

 

[johnmc]

That arguement doesn't hold water, that's like saying Palestinians/Israelites suffer in the Gaza Strip

I'm talking about here...on the mainland

Were you looking through your curtains when strangers arrived next door to visit Mrs O'Reilly thinking it was a bomb production factory?

Catholics around the world didn't suffer because of the IRA...can you say the same about Muslims?

The prejudice exists because they are not the same colour and wear different clothes...like it or not

I take your point, but i'm not twitching my curtains at my muslim neighbours either. Like I say catholics around the world didnt suffer because of the IRA but locally, on the mainland they certainly did. And thats because the terror they were causing was relatively localised. Do you think if the IRA were bombing the USA for example that it wouldnt have occured?

I get your point but I'm Irish descent as are/were nearly all of my friends at the height of the IRA bombings. Their parents had Irish accents and were from the North and the South. Apart from a few dcks most were against the terrorism and just wanted to live their lives and no one gave them any sht whatsoever. Rusholme had many many Irish families dating back a LONG time. Some lads even got sent away from the troubles to places like Manchester as a few were at my school. They told me some horrendous stories about Northern Ireland and I can only imagine what went on over there.

There were always the staunch anti English brigade but I ignored them and laughed at them. Yes I even said Off back to Ireland if you hate the English so much. Plastic paddy's some of them ...............which is probably classed as racist now I dunno.

We all lived in relative harmony, Black, White (Irish and English) , Asian etc. The Asian lads who worked in the restaurants were proper funny and great lads. I don't know whether they were Muslim or not and I didn't give a All I cared about was how we got on and had a laugh.

likewise I didn't care who was Catholic or Protestant.

I certainly don't look at someone and say THEY ARE A TERRORIST just because of how they dress.

I mean , how the do you know? Most Asians in Rusholme are lovely people.

There are about of every colour. Not every person who dresses a certain way is a or a terrorist though.

I wouldnt disagree with you and dont believe I have said anything to the contrary

 

[mancityvstoke]

I take your point, but i'm not twitching my curtains at my muslim neighbours either. Like I say catholics around the world didnt suffer because of the IRA but locally, on the mainland they certainly did. And thats because the terror they were causing was relatively localised. Do you think if the IRA were bombing the USA for example that it wouldnt have occured?

I get your point but I'm Irish descent as are/were nearly all of my friends at the height of the IRA bombings. Their parents had Irish accents and were from the North and the South. Apart from a few dcks most were against the terrorism and just wanted to live their lives and no one gave them any sht whatsoever. Rusholme had many many Irish families dating back a LONG time. Some lads even got sent away from the troubles to places like Manchester as a few were at my school. They told me some horrendous stories about Northern Ireland and I can only imagine what went on over there.

There were always the staunch anti English brigade but I ignored them and laughed at them. Yes I even said Off back to Ireland if you hate the English so much. Plastic paddy's some of them ...............which is probably classed as racist now I dunno.

We all lived in relative harmony, Black, White (Irish and English) , Asian etc. The Asian lads who worked in the restaurants were proper funny and great lads. I don't know whether they were Muslim or not and I didn't give a All I cared about was how we got on and had a laugh.

likewise I didn't care who was Catholic or Protestant.

I certainly don't look at someone and say THEY ARE A TERRORIST just because of how they dress.

I mean , how the do you know? Most Asians in Rusholme are lovely people.

There are about of every colour. Not every person who dresses a certain way is a or a terrorist though.

I wouldnt disagree with you and dont believe I have said anything to the contrary

oh ok sorry mate I thought you said Catholics got a load of shit over here because they were Catholics. (Then I went off on a ramble ..as usual)

I never saw any of that.

 

[johnmc]

oh ok sorry mate I thought you said Catholics got a load of sht over here because they were Catholics. (Then I went off on a ramble ..as usual)

I never saw any of that.

Oh right, well yes lots did. Maybe not because they were catholics but because of the IRA's actions. They may well have been northern irish but on the other side of the coin. Just because you didnt see it didnt mean it didnt occur. Just as many muslims wont see it. The majority of people are able toi get along regardless of any colour creed or religion.

 

[west didsblue]

That was a negative racist stereotype about an entire group of people.

He was correctly punished (if a little leniently in my book) but IMHO I couldn't see anything where he was making critical comments of the religion of Judaism itself.

That's fair enough but the point was there is a fine line between criticising a religion and mocking it for the sake of upsetting its followers or inciting others.

It's ike someone making a comment on here and two posters answering it. One gives a reasoned critique backed up by a oherent argument and the other calls the comments a load of shite and the OP a fucking moron. One is acceptable whereas the other isn't.

This is the crux of the whole issue isn't it and there's confusion on all sides.

Some who see all religions as, not necessarily 'evil', but whose doctrine is regressive to a progressive society whereas there are those who are critical of religion who do see it as evil, like militant atheists who have a serious negative view of organised religion and seek to demonise and patronise religions and those who follow them. Do you feel people have a correct understand of Jews and Hebrews and their uses as synonyms to describe those who practice Judaism?

I'm sort of muddled myself in this area; I think I have the right understande because I have been informed that my grandmother on my mothers side was Jewish and that apparently makes me Jewish, but am I jewish as in the religious connotation or Hebrew in the racial sense? Does Jewish mean Hebrew and vice versa? If asked should I say 'Jewish heritage' or 'Hebrew heritage'?

You can be Jewish without being an adherent of Judaism. If you were to decide to follow Judaism as a religion you could do this without any conversion process. I'm sure there are thousands of people who fall into this category, most of whom probably don't even realise it. The term Hebrew these days normally refers to the Hebrew language but it is more or less interchangeable with "Jewish" when describing a person. I would refer to Jewish heritage rather than Hebrew heritage as this would be more understood but in reality there's no difference.

 

[mancityvstoke]

Why the fuck do we have any religions


Seems to me they are just an excuse to cause wars and kill each other.....................madness

We are all just HUMAN BEINGS and will all die one day anyway.

We should learn to live in peace .........have a laugh and look after each other.



I know....deluded fucker

 

[Metal Biker]

That's fair enough but the point was there is a fine line between criticising a religion and mocking it for the sake of upsetting its followers or inciting others.

It's ike someone making a comment on here and two posters answering it. One gives a reasoned critique backed up by a oherent argument and the other calls the comments a load of shite and the OP a fucking moron. One is acceptable whereas the other isn't.

This is the crux of the whole issue isn't it and there's confusion on all sides.

Some who see all religions as, not necessarily 'evil', but whose doctrine is regressive to a progressive society whereas there are those who are critical of religion who do see it as evil, like militant atheists who have a serious negative view of organised religion and seek to demonise and patronise religions and those who follow them. Do you feel people have a correct understand of Jews and Hebrews and their uses as synonyms to describe those who practice Judaism?

I'm sort of muddled myself in this area; I think I have the right understande because I have been informed that my grandmother on my mothers side was Jewish and that apparently makes me Jewish, but am I jewish as in the religious connotation or Hebrew in the racial sense? Does Jewish mean Hebrew and vice versa? If asked should I say 'Jewish heritage' or 'Hebrew heritage'?

You can be Jewish without being an adherent of Judaism. If you were to decide to follow Judaism as a religion you could do this without any conversion process. I'm sure there are thousands of people who fall into this category, most of whom probably don't even realise it. The term Hebrew these days normally refers to the Hebrew language but it is more or less interchangeable with "Jewish" when describing a person. I would refer to Jewish heritage rather than Hebrew heritage as this would be more understood but in reality there's no difference.

Cheers for that mate. I had a similar idea so its always good to have it clarified by another.

 

[Anonymous]

You can't say there are 5000 honour killings in the world (whilst implying it is a unique phenomenon to the Muslim communities around the world), then when challenged on this, say "although I concede the numbers are unlikely to be accurate". That's the biggest load of bllocks ever.

I been on this thread all day. You challenged me earlier on something relating to homosexuality. I answered that and since then several other points have been levelled at me, which I feel I have answered.

You obviously have everything all worked out. All of your ill informed prejudices lined up in neat little rows like chess pieces. Ready to bring them into play whenever the previous piece is quickly removed from the board.

Those are the figures widely used but it is very likely the number is much higher. You yourself have used figures that are likely to be inaccurate in posts so not sure why its ok for you to do so then? I did challenge you on your belief homosexuality is a choice, and I would discuss further only you said it was off topic (and you knew you were talking nonsense) and asked to drop it, so I did. You hardly answered it. So I moved onto another topic. This thread has had many topics discussed, I didnt realise you were the authority on what could be discussed and by whom.

I don't have anything worked out, and I don't profess to. Part of the reason I come on here is to learn more and if my viewpoint is skewwed or wrong I can often find that out on here. BUT, given that your own views are clearly clouded, and one of these views seems to be homosexuality could be a choice, it is difficult to take what you say with any credibility.

I never said it was my belief homosexuality was a choice. I said I wasn't aware of any definitive evidence that was universally accepted to prove or disprove "are you born gay". Does that make me a homophobe?. No it doesn't.

Show me where I said this?.

You're trying to railroad me into a discussion on homosexuality. Probably to try and out me (no pun intended) as a homophobe. You were struggling to keep up and tried to steer me elsewhere.

I have no issue with homosexuality. If you want to start a thread debating "are you born gay", do so, I may even join in if you like.

I've added the posts below which clearly refute your wide of the mark accusations. Read them slowly so you can absorb my answers.

Sorry. Are you saying you are not sure whether someone is born gay or chooses to be?

I'm not bothered either way, but as you ask, I am not aware of definitive evidence (that is universally accepted) that gives definitive proof that somebody is "born gay".

I wouldn't care to comment either way as this isn't what we're discussing in this thread. I would also have to do some serious research into the matter before commenting. I guess by definition I would find information relating to sexual preference (choice) and information relating to sexual orientation (predetermined). I never have done any serious research into this as it isn't a subject that has any bearing on my life.

I hope that clears that up.

 

[Anonymous]

Does it fill you with more hate and anger that I would defend the evil Muslims?.

Not at all. But we're critical of evil extremists, not "evil Muslims". I just don't get why you're seemingly filled with such anger and hatred against those who choose to criticise Islam with perfectly logical and justifiable complaints.

Do you feel I'm siding with the enemy?

The 'enemy' which has been eluded to during this debate is violent extremist doctrine, so only you can answer that. There is a sense that you are attempting to shift blame away from the perpetrators of the act by agreeing with the notion that antagonising others which results in a heinous crime can be explained as inevitable and therefore understandable.

Did it bother you to read my thoughts on intermarriage with the enemy?.

Haven't read it.

After I mentioned intermarrying with Muslims, you could see the anti Islamic posters getting very upset with such a notion. I don't think they had ever considered that their children could intermarry and how it could be a very distinct possibility.

Again haven't read it nor does it bother me if you are insinuating what you're insinuating. Although you are beginning to confirm the suspicions I have about you that you feel about other posters who have made their comments on this particular topic, and I feel your accusatory stance is not only misguided but also damaging and also an example you have nothing left to add to the debate.

This was probably the reason you accused me of having a "white guilt complex".

You're just typical of the archetype, which you are again living up to. It doesn't appear that you understand what having a White Guilt Complex means.

They were soon disappearing from the thread with their little worlds crumbling at the thought. You could hear the collective gulp... It was wonderful, I just hope it was running around in their heads all night as they struggled to reconcile such a thought. I also hope it was the first thing they thought about this morning. ;-)

Your accusation of "white guilt complex" in this scenario is no different to being labelled a n****r lover growing up, just because I hung around with Black and Asian lads. (Well if it was a toss up between their kind and your kind.)

I did the same. Yet i'm not the one attempting to justify the actions of the extremists or attempting to place some of the blame for what happened at the feet of the cartoonists. What exactly is 'my kind'? Human? Egalitarian?

Thankfully the world has moved on, people like you are quickly being left behind. Your world is finished the Muslims are coming, BM will soon be under sharia law and our children/grandchildren will be intermarrying.

And there we have it. Confirmation of your bigotry at last. You think those who criticise religion as being small minded bigoted racists don't you. Oh the hypocrisy. "People like me"? You honestly think I judge people based on differences such as skin colour, sexual orientation or gender? Religion is a belief, a choice, a choice I don't happen to agree with but I don't criticise the person, I criticise the philosophy. I see people who follow religion with a passion as a 40 year old man who still believes in Father Christmas. Do I show sensitivity about his beliefs or do I hold the view that it's time for him to readdress his view of the world and his belief? You're still focused on skin colour, i'm not.

If you aren't mature enough to accept other peoples opinions then you're just a big as part of the problem as the one you claim to want to eradicate. I trust you are happy in your sanctimonious sense of grandeur. But if you ever attempt to refer to me as something which I am not, or make any sort of connotations as being so, you can consider any further dialogue between the two of us as finished. I have no time for closed minded bigots like yourself who throw accusations and insults around because they have no logical argument to make.

I for one cannot wait. It's practically the dream MLK had. Beautiful.

As does everyone. Its just a shame that our methods differ in achieving that goal. Dialogue and understanding replaced by your ideals of demonisation and censorship.

Blah, blah, blah. To think you criticised my essays.

Twist, twist, twist.

 

[Anonymous]

Then you've certainly displayed the 'guilt complex' part, it seems.

You have been filed under genocide!.

Not very mature are you.

It was a joke from earlier in the thread (Aguero93:20) has to take the credit.