Social conservatism

stonerblue said:
I'm the husband of a woman who has had to have an abortion. I am also the husband of a woman with an incurable debilitating disease that will see her life get worse and worse before she dies. and has made plans regarding her end of life. She is not morally reprehensible.
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I never said she was.

I know plenty of women that have had abortions and they’re not morally reprehensible people. The act they did was.

There are particular circumstances that mean abortion is a last resort to save the mother and in cases where the baby’s life is likely to be incredibly agonising and short, and I would compromise with these situations as a policy for wider society, if I was PM for example. If a parent is in a very difficult medical position like the above, I wouldn’t say they are morally reprehensible for doing it, they must be devastated.

Of course I am talking about the 100,000 other abortions per year where letting the child live is a far better option. Choosing to kill a baby for convenience is morally reprehensible.

I don’t think your wife choosing the option of assisted dying for herself is morally reprehensible at all either, I think as a society it would be to implement it as a wider policy and I wouldn’t choose it for myself but I have sympathy for people in that position. My concern is around where it leads as a society, rather than very specific cases.

I know the personal becomes the political but it sounds like you’re in an exceptional circumstance yourselves and you’re taking my point on it being generic policy and applying it to your wife.

For what it’s worth I am very sorry to hear about her health and I wish her all the best.
 
Ban-jani said:
Lloyd made the suggestion that conservatives keep women down because we’re somehow scared of them.

The notion that men and women are the same in all areas and it’s only society that makes them different, is a pseudoscience that has come out of the identity political crowd, which is left wing. It’s not all left wingers, but it has come out of that area of politics. For the record my mates are all Labour voters and most of them disagree with that notion and would agree with me on the how-you-treat-women debate.

Men on average do work longer hours and women have kids (yes they are different, who’d have thought) and this means careers are affected. Of course some women don’t and go to the top but generally speaking, more women choose to be homemakers and work part time than men.

None of what I’ve said is false and I stand by it. None of it has been shot down.

Rascal is a hateful bigot, I’ve no time for him. Regarding centrists, that’s because centrists typically have liberal social views and right wing economic views. Not always, but centrism in Britain is founded on liberalism, as you probably know. That’s why they disagree with me.

Anyway, enjoy your Saturday.
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Do you know me? Didn't think so. So do me the courtesy of using my correct username and tagging me.

I didn't say "somehow", I was specific in that I said you were scared of having your privilege and position undermined.

ps; every single one of the conditions of engagement in my original post in this thread apply to you, so fuck off, it's like arguing with a tub of blancmange.
 
lloydie said:
Do you know me? Didn't think so. So do me the courtesy of using my correct username and tagging me.

I didn't say "somehow", I was specific in that I said you were scared of having your privilege and position undermined.

ps; every single one of the conditions of engagement in my original post in this thread apply to you, so fuck off, it's like arguing with a tub of blancmange.
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As if you’re getting pissy about your username not being spelt correctly, my word.

Yes I know you said that, it’s fucking garbage that’s what it is.

Ive always worked under women. Carrying a suitcase for them and walking them home isn’t stopping them getting decent jobs you plank.

Carry on though, keep up the radical gender ideology and you’ll ensure your politics are rejected for another 11 years.
 
Ban-jani said:
Well I can honestly tell you that most of the time I offer these things I am taken up on it and even when I am not, they are very appreciative I’ve offered.

Maybe you know more than women and can speak for them though, eh?

Yeah let’s leave it there, you’re making me despair.
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i dont speak for women, i speak for myself, my views are informed by my interactions with women.

now i will leave it unless you are going to make more baseless accussations
 
Ban-jani said:
As if you’re getting pissy about your username not being spelt correctly, my word.

Yes I know you said that, it’s fucking garbage that’s what it is.

Ive always worked under women. Carrying a suitcase for them and walking them home isn’t stopping them getting decent jobs you plank.

Carry on though, keep up the radical gender ideology and you’ll ensure your politics are rejected for another 11 years.
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I told you to fuck off.
 
People who are interested in conservatism are interested in conserving what we have. Therefore almost by definition, conservatives are going to be people who society is working pretty well for. Those with stable jobs, with property and wealth, with no or minimal discrimination, and with no reason to change the status quo. It's not a massive surprise, for example, so see Muslims who are far more socially conservative than the most ardent UKIP supporter become left wing when they live in a society where they're a minority and society doesn't work in their favour (that's a badly worded sentence - I don't mean to suggest that all Muslims fit into this category, just that I've seen some that are very socially conservative who support Labour).
 
I'm With Stupid said:
People who are interested in conservatism are interested in conserving what we have. Therefore almost by definition, conservatives are going to be people who society is working pretty well for. Those with stable jobs, with property and wealth, with no or minimal discrimination, and with no reason to change the status quo. It's not a massive surprise, for example, so see Muslims who are far more socially conservative than the most ardent UKIP supporter become left wing when they live in a society where they're a minority and society doesn't work in their favour (that's a badly worded sentence - I don't mean to suggest that all Muslims fit into this category, just that I've seen some that are very socially conservative who support Labour).
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I’ve often said Labour and Islam is a match made in hell. It’s going to come to a head at some point, not necessarily violence but a big falling out. A bit like the trans vs feminism conflict.

When you have Muslim parents protesting LGBT schools, I don’t see how that will register in a positive manner with Labour HQ.

Obviously I am making a very generalised point but Islam is very conservative, you are quite right.

Regarding your first point, the poorest in society now vote Tory so I don’t quite agree. Labour has become the Party of the Middle Class.
 
Labours vote was pretty much even between working and middle class wasn’t it? Just nowhere near enough in either.
 
Id say the majority in this country are economically to the left yet socially to the right in their views.

Unfortunately there is no natural home for these voters and a choice is always forced upon them with them nearly always choosing the Conservatives.
 
Interesting thread.

Think it needs clearing up the difference between Social Conservatism as a movement and being socially conservative (I believe there is a difference although one can lead to the horrors of the other).

Like has been said in posts before traditionally Labour voters were economically to the left (socialist policies) but held socially Right-Wing views.

Labour has increased it's middle class support, mostly kids of the working class who have gone to University and are socially liberal and have no interest in religion (like me), that has impacted the perception of Labour amongst it's traditional base.

My dad is a prime example of the traditional Labour voter moving away from the party and this is down to holding socially conservative values. He is anti-EU, he is anti-immigration, he is pro capital punishment and he is very patriotic, although is anti-monarchy.

These are all emotional topics that are easier to manipulate then economic policy, unsurprisingly UKIP picked up his vote.
 
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