SSN and The Times

[Rammyblues]

Sky alone are responsible for the ridiculous state of financial affairs in English football. They bludgeoned in, threw money at it and changed the face of football forever.

And who benefitted most? Manchester United, constantly spending more than anyone until Abramovitch came along. So what on earth Fergie is prattling on about, I don't know. Hypocrites all.

Sky created the climate where it is impossible to compete without major finance, now they're worried a bigger player is calling the shots. They've lost control.

I know this has been talked about before but Sky are not the only culprits IMO the ruination of football and the rocketing of transfer fees and salaries have been caused by the folllowing:-

1) Jimmy Hill - getting rid of the wage cap
2) Rags - Going to the stockmarket to get the funds needed to buy players to break the monopoly of Liverpool
3) Bin Dippers - being responsible for ending gate receipts to away teams home team keeping all monies.
4) Sky - sole tv rights for prem - those at the top receiving the most money
5) Uefa - Creation of Champions league and the distribution of money from tv rights again benefiting the bigger teams in Europe who already cream of the largest tv incomes in their own country.
6) Uefa - creating a cartel of teams whose income far exceed most other clubs and then bringing in financial regulations to keep them where they are.
7) FA / Prem League /Uefa - Bringing in regulations re squad sizes which place a high premium on home grown talent.


I suggest maybe not individually the above has seen destruction of football as it used to be but collectively all have played a major part in the situation we find ourselves today. If they were so concerned about the state of football and wanted a level playing field maybe taking the following two steps could resolve a lot of problems and make the competitions more competitive.

1) All sky money is divided equally (included TV revenues) among the prem league, so whether you finish top or bottom, whether you are telvised 10 times or twice all clubs receive the same amount. (will never happen)

2) All CL money including tv money to be shared equally by all clubs qualifying for the champions league whether you win te trophy or get knocked out in the early rounds

By sharing the money equally allows the lesser teams to buy better quality players and reduces the income of the few so that in years to come the playing field will be truly level.

 

[Damocles]

The point is, if your owners work the same way (even allowing a little for inflation), it is going to take at least 5 years if not longer due to the economic climate to get to that break even/operating within your means level to satisfy UEFA and Platini....

Meanwhile having looked at the regs for this UEFA will not allow things like £150m shirt sponsorship deals, £1m executive seats in the ground, £50m advertising hoardings as these would not represent fair and value.... compared to every other club....

Far be it from me to say what's right or wrong way to do things, but CL qualification is a must sooner rather than later.... which is not going to be easy, Spurs, Pool, Everton also in that mix (I think Arse, Manure, Chavs are still the best 3 in the PL)

Hi there marc,

I see that you're another Spurs fan that doesn't seem to have a fucking clue what they are talking about :)

If you would have a looked a little harder at those UEFA regs, you would have read that any contract signed before 1 June 2010 will NOT be looked at in terms of balancing the finances. This is basically our whole squad with the exception of Yaya, Silva, Milner and Balo.

If you would have even the smallest amount of research into City, you would realise that we have the highest non-top four attendance, and have already signed large sponsorship deals with Aabar, Ferrostaal, Abu Dhabi Tourist Board, Umbro, Ethiad Airways etc. Some of these are the biggest deals of their kind in world football, and we haven't even done anything yet.

If you would have bothered to do some fact checking instead of the half arsed tabloid opinion that you seem to have conjured, you would realise that the Sheik has also converted his loans into equity meaning that City currently have zero debt and a huge squad full of saleable assets, with large scale continued investment in the business and footballing sides of the club. Perhaps you would like to visit the huge patches of land around our ground that we have just bought to build commercial ventures on? Or the estimated £1 BILLION investment with the creation of the East Manchester Development Board (co-chaired by Garry Cooke and the Council boss)?

We won't just meet Platini's regulations, we'll pass them with flying colours. Even the smallest amount of knowledge about the regulations or MCFC could have told you this.

 

[marcspurs]

Sky alone are responsible for the ridiculous state of financial affairs in English football. They bludgeoned in, threw money at it and changed the face of football forever.

And who benefitted most? Manchester United, constantly spending more than anyone until Abramovitch came along. So what on earth Fergie is prattling on about, I don't know. Hypocrites all.

Sky created the climate where it is impossible to compete without major finance, now they're worried a bigger player is calling the shots. They've lost control.

Thanks for the welcome, you will hopefully find me unbiased and fair in my comments (I am sure you will let me know if I am not).....

I agree on Fergie, whenever he mentions other teams and spending money he forgets (conveniently) that Rio cost £29m, Sulkatov £30.75m, Looney £27m, Nani £17m, Carrick £19m, RVN £19m, Veron £16m, Hargreaves £17m..... not to mention all the ones they bought for £10m-£15m not mentioned here...

The only ones he has had any financial return on are Beckham (£25m, cost nothing) and Ronaldo (£80m, cost £15m).... other than those two the rest are either permanently injured (Rio and Owen Hargreaves), over rated Carrick and Sulkatov, woefully out of form Rooney...... complete waste of money Veron....

Me thinks he needs to keep off the red wine for a bit

 

[DenisLawBackHeel74]

Not wanting to piss on your parade..... and it's all well and good banging that Manure spend £xx and Barca spend £yy on wages when you have to look at the bigger picture.... especially if you don't want to fall foul of Platini's new rules....

Manure and Barca can afford those wages as they turnover close to £300m..... If they spend £150m on wages that is a mere 50% of the turnover.... Where City need to work is growing the revenue streams as a turnover of £90m a year and a wage bill of over £110m a year will mean no entry into European competitions......

I see many of you banging on about Chelsea did this and Chelsea did that, well one of my oldest mates worked for Chelsea up until this season..... some facts about Chelsea and Abramovic....

They had already qualified for the CL before he arrived
They had 3 FA Cups, 1 Cup Winners Cup and a League Cup in the previous 7 years... so some level of success..... with all due respect to City your recent history is nowhere near that.

Chelsea spent a lot of money, but they also got a world class coach in Mourinho. The step from 3rd or 4th to 1st or 2nd is very small...... compared to the leap City are trying to make. Abramovic guaranteed the Chelsea debt (and still does to this day), all the money he has put in has been converted to shares so in effect the debt has gone, but even they are not operating within their means (spending more on transfers, wages etc than they bring in revenue, but they are much much closer than they were, but it has taken 8 years, when they said it would take 5)...

The point is, if your owners work the same way (even allowing a little for inflation), it is going to take at least 5 years if not longer due to the economic climate to get to that break even/operating within your means level to satisfy UEFA and Platini....

Meanwhile having looked at the regs for this UEFA will not allow things like £150m shirt sponsorship deals, £1m executive seats in the ground, £50m advertising hoardings as these would not represent fair and value.... compared to every other club....

Far be it from me to say what's right or wrong way to do things, but CL qualification is a must sooner rather than later.... which is not going to be easy, Spurs, Pool, Everton also in that mix (I think Arse, Manure, Chavs are still the best 3 in the PL)

All those wanting Spurs to lose last night should think again..... if we don't make the group stages there is a chance that the PL could lose a CL place... would it not be ironic if you finished 4th and missed out cos we cocked up in the play-off?? Be careful what you wish for......

Good luck Thursday..... let our game be a warning.... there are no easy away days in Europe.... unless you play a Scottish team (sorry to all the Scottish people on here but the standard north of the border is dire)....

Welcome....


You raise some interesting points I think....the thing is though, our owners are well aware of what has been done at Chelsea and will no doubt have a plan for the development of the club. Part of this involves the ground around the stadium (varius suggestions about what will be built), uprating the seating, increasing ticket prices, and sponsorship deals. I think we will all just have to wait and see what happens...too early to make judgements.....the financial fair play rules are probably littered with loopholes...as is always the case with anything UEFA seems to impose.

As for your game yesterday, i think you will get through on the away leg, good luck for the rest of the competition....

 

[depps]

Just to correct another bit of nonsense from the Spurs fan - The Champions League places for 2011/12 season are already set in stone so no matter how wank Spurs or anybody else are in Europe there will still be 4 spots available for next season. This seasons results effect the coefficients for 2012/13 and even then for England to fall below Germany or Italy would probably mean every single English club being knocked out at the earliest stage possible (I haven't done the math but just looking at the table I would actually hazard a guess that it is impossible for England to loose a spot based on how teams get on this season no matter what happens).

 

[marcspurs]

The point is, if your owners work the same way (even allowing a little for inflation), it is going to take at least 5 years if not longer due to the economic climate to get to that break even/operating within your means level to satisfy UEFA and Platini....

Meanwhile having looked at the regs for this UEFA will not allow things like £150m shirt sponsorship deals, £1m executive seats in the ground, £50m advertising hoardings as these would not represent fair and value.... compared to every other club....

Far be it from me to say what's right or wrong way to do things, but CL qualification is a must sooner rather than later.... which is not going to be easy, Spurs, Pool, Everton also in that mix (I think Arse, Manure, Chavs are still the best 3 in the PL)

Hi there marc,

I see that you're another Spurs fan that doesn't seem to have a fucking clue what they are talking about :)

If you would have a looked a little harder at those UEFA regs, you would have read that any contract signed before 1 June 2010 will NOT be looked at in terms of balancing the finances. This is basically our whole squad with the exception of Yaya, Silva, Milner and Balo.

If you would have even the smallest amount of research into City, you would realise that we have the highest non-top four attendance, and have already signed large sponsorship deals with Aabar, Ferrostaal, Abu Dhabi Tourist Board, Umbro, Ethiad Airways etc. Some of these are the biggest deals of their kind in world football, and we haven't even done anything yet.

If you would have bothered to do some fact checking instead of the half arsed tabloid opinion that you seem to have conjured, you would realise that the Sheik has also converted his loans into equity meaning that City currently have zero debt and a huge squad full of saleable assets, with large scale continued investment in the business and footballing sides of the club. Perhaps you would like to visit the huge patches of land around our ground that we have just bought to build commercial ventures on? Or the estimated £1 BILLION investment with the creation of the East Manchester Development Board (co-chaired by Garry Cooke and the Council boss)?

We won't just meet Platini's regulations, we'll pass them with flying colours. Even the smallest amount of knowledge about the regulations or MCFC could have told you this.

Appreciate being educated on City..... and don't have a problem being corrected....

I am at CoM's every 3 or 4 weeks at the moment sorting out licence agreements on some merchandise that I will be supplying very soon..... so I do see the huge patches of land around the club... and I do see what they are trying to achieve and I am sure off the field they will achieve their goals quicker than they will on the pitch... and that is not me dissing your team/squad, but City can only control what they do on the pitch not what all their rivals do, therefore there is no guarantee of finishing in the top 4 unless you win 25 of 38 games..... roughly.....

Off the field developments are completely in their control and easy to predict and manage.

The one thing we have learned and many Spurs fans have realised, you cannot change the manager and half the squad every season..... last summer was our quietest for years, we bought Bassong, Crouch and Krancjar in terms of 1st team regulars plus a couple of youngsters..... and the nett result was a settled side, and a 4th place finish....

Again you saw that at WHL on Saturday for the 1st 45 mins..... City were lucky to be in the game thanks to Hart and the post.... It takes time to gel a side, and you are still adding to it.... then you have to keep all of them happy.....

 

[Mastes1]

Sky alone are responsible for the ridiculous state of financial affairs in English football. They bludgeoned in, threw money at it and changed the face of football forever.

And who benefitted most? Manchester United, constantly spending more than anyone until Abramovitch came along. So what on earth Fergie is prattling on about, I don't know. Hypocrites all.
Sky created the climate where it is impossible to compete without major finance, now they're worried a bigger player is calling the shots. They've lost control.

Actually Liverpool had spent the most since the premiership started until Abramovich and your sheik came along.

 

[Balti]

Check the figures for how much Abramovich spent in his first few seasons and adjust for inflation. Check out the wages United, Arsenal or Liverpool pay out and have done for ten years.
Check out how much Barcelona, Real Madrid or Inter have spent on wages and transfer fees in recent times.
We are playing a game of catch up and silly sums have to be spent. The silver lining is that this summer we have brought in really top drawer players which wasn't the case before so our spending sprees should not be as extravagant in the future. Yes, 1 billion has been spent but its all relative baby and part of that was buying the bloody club and inheriting its debt.

Spot on. The pace of our spending is probably faster right now but they would have done the same if they could. Nothing new here. Move along now.

 

[DenisLawBackHeel74]

Although I agree with what you say about Liverpool as a place/council, your numbers are nonsense.

Liverpool will never be sold right now for £650m - more like £250m on a debt/cash free basis. The £650m "pie in the sky" valuation, often quoted is the number inc. debt. The new stadium could be built for half the £400m you are suggesting.

Whichever way you look at the deal with Sheik Mansour it was not about long term "investment" potential or financial return. With the spending already made it would take 20 years of sustained success at the highest levels to be able to get to zero. The club will generate revenues of around £90m this year (at best) and has a wage bill alone of over £130m. Add on the cost of goods sold, running costs and all the other costs and you have a business that this year will lose £80-100m. IF we win something and qualify for the Champions League we could reduce these losses next season by £30-40m. It will take billions of "investment" followed by writing off/conversion to equity of all that money before the club can generate profits on a standalone, if ever.

The story is not made up bull. Its pretty accurate relative to most of the crap the Times has been writing recently. But who cares, its not our money. As a standalone business the club has been effectively broke and reliant on 3rd party funding for a long, long time. Fortunately we have the best third party funder anyone could want.

Very well put..... and I have to say it is all well and good having that 3rd party funder, but if you want to play in Europe's top competitions the club being run as it is will be barred from competing from 2012 onwards unless they can show they generate the revenue to cover the costs.... it is no good anymore relying on a 3rd party funder....

You may well point to the Barcas and Madrids of this world, but remember these are European super powers that will ensure they show the figures stack up when it comes to it, far tougher for a team that has been in Europe twice in 20 years, not won anything for 34 years (that Tueart overhead kick is still one of the greatest Wembley goals) and turns over less than a third of these Spanish giants.....UEFA are not stupid.... they know that your revenue streams are not going to double or more in this economic climate without some help from the owner so I would guess they will be monitoring City very closely....

UEFA have already barred Real Mallorca from Europe this season for being in administration at the end of last season (although now under new ownership)..... they won't think twice about "bullying" an unfashionable side....

I am sure the City owners understand this, but the wages are really ridiculous....We have King, Modric, Bale and Keane earning a week what Ya Ya Toure earns on his own!! And we have a turnover in excess of £150m a year (around £60m more than City) and a wage bill of 45% of that turnover..... which proves getting into the top four and running a club within it's means is achievable.....

In terms of perfect investment, we are by far the best in the PL......

No debt, London based (all be it a shit hole of an area), a very young up coming squad, new training centre being built and a new stadium coming soon, there will be little or no borrowing on either of these projects......

In terms of investment we are perfect for it...... new 57,500 stadium by 2013..... no debt and a club although not hugely successful in trophy terms in the last 20 years, have been in Europe five of the last 6 seasons.........

another good post.

But I think you are missing a very good point made earlier in the thread about Murdoch changing the face of football a la reach & range of the game and the money it brought into the premiership; which was subsequently divvied up by the sky 4.

Our owners can potentially break that hegemony with the wealth at their disposal. We can form a breakaway group of teams who want to manage their own game rights, but why stop there. Why not buy a media business in direct competition.......The same argument holds true for the UEFA fair play rules, you mention that bigger clubs might be able to get away with it because of their revenues...I think we might because we have the deepest pockets and the potential to really upset the applecart....whether this be by forming a breakaway european league of the top sides or something else I couldn't guess but sheik mansour is not somebody you would want to cross in that way given the financial clout at his disposal.....so in terms of 'bullying' i would like to see the day platini or blatter try that with city....the fallout would be interesting...

As for spurs being a good propect for takeover....i don't think you would represent good value for an investor....you say yourself what you've already acheived, any investor would need to pay dearly to acquire the business as it stands I would think.

 

[BufordUSABlue]

Not wanting to piss on your parade..... and it's all well and good banging that Manure spend £xx and Barca spend £yy on wages when you have to look at the bigger picture.... especially if you don't want to fall foul of Platini's new rules....

Manure and Barca can afford those wages as they turnover close to £300m..... If they spend £150m on wages that is a mere 50% of the turnover.... Where City need to work is growing the revenue streams as a turnover of £90m a year and a wage bill of over £110m a year will mean no entry into European competitions......

I see many of you banging on about Chelsea did this and Chelsea did that, well one of my oldest mates worked for Chelsea up until this season..... some facts about Chelsea and Abramovic....

They had already qualified for the CL before he arrived
They had 3 FA Cups, 1 Cup Winners Cup and a League Cup in the previous 7 years... so some level of success..... with all due respect to City your recent history is nowhere near that.

Chelsea spent a lot of money, but they also got a world class coach in Mourinho. The step from 3rd or 4th to 1st or 2nd is very small...... compared to the leap City are trying to make. Abramovic guaranteed the Chelsea debt (and still does to this day), all the money he has put in has been converted to shares so in effect the debt has gone, but even they are not operating within their means (spending more on transfers, wages etc than they bring in revenue, but they are much much closer than they were, but it has taken 8 years, when they said it would take 5)...

The point is, if your owners work the same way (even allowing a little for inflation), it is going to take at least 5 years if not longer due to the economic climate to get to that break even/operating within your means level to satisfy UEFA and Platini....

Meanwhile having looked at the regs for this UEFA will not allow things like £150m shirt sponsorship deals, £1m executive seats in the ground, £50m advertising hoardings as these would not represent fair and value.... compared to every other club....

Far be it from me to say what's right or wrong way to do things, but CL qualification is a must sooner rather than later.... which is not going to be easy, Spurs, Pool, Everton also in that mix (I think Arse, Manure, Chavs are still the best 3 in the PL)

All those wanting Spurs to lose last night should think again..... if we don't make the group stages there is a chance that the PL could lose a CL place... would it not be ironic if you finished 4th and missed out cos we cocked up in the play-off?? Be careful what you wish for......

Good luck Thursday..... let our game be a warning.... there are no easy away days in Europe.... unless you play a Scottish team (sorry to all the Scottish people on here but the standard north of the border is dire)....

Nice post Marc and some food for thought here, i must admit i had a chuckle when your boys were 3-0 in 1/2-hour, but as much as i hate saying it, Cockneynap made some excellent changes and the team dug themselves out of a right hole, without ever playing well, you will sail through to the Champions League proper now pal........good luck to you as well, always enjoy the banter with Spurs fans!