SSN and The Times

[malg]

This is turning into quite an informative thread, and a good read. Nice to see the Spurs fan hasn't been lynched, and in fact has opened up even more debate.

 

[marcspurs]

Just to correct another bit of nonsense from the Spurs fan - The Champions League places for 2011/12 season are already set in stone so no matter how wank Spurs or anybody else are in Europe there will still be 4 spots available for next season. This seasons results effect the coefficients for 2012/13 and even then for England to fall below Germany or Italy would probably mean every single English club being knocked out at the earliest stage possible (I haven't done the math but just looking at the table I would actually hazard a guess that it is impossible for England to loose a spot based on how teams get on this season no matter what happens).

Coefficients are worked out on a rolling 5 year basis..... have you factored the good years like 2007/08 when Manure played Chavs, that high rating for that season disappears next season.....

A year ago we were 23 points ahead of Germany..... today the gap is 16 points.......

The estimated (as these things are based on actual results in European competition and not set in stone) co-efficients for 2011 gives a difference of 12 points to Germany and 2012 could be as little as 4 points.....

Now if English clubs do well then the chances are we will be fine, thanks to Fulham reaching the Europa League Final last season our coefficient was not dented too badly last season... it negated Liverpool, Manure and Arsenal's failings (in comparison to the previous 2 or 3 years)........

I don't want Arsenal or Chelsea to win the thing, but similarly reaching the KO stages helps us all in the long run..... you have to see that.

If all English teams get knocked out in the group stages of both competitions our coefficient will be seriously affected..... that allied to German clubs progressing to the KO stages for arguments sake could see them pass us in coefficient terms and therefore take our 4th place in the CL....

These things are not set in stone and are based on a rolling 5 year cycle...... the CL places for this season 1-4 are set as the season has started.... if Engish clubs fuck up this season then they could lose it for next season.....

8 clubs fighting for 3 spaces, I don't care how many top players you have or how is spent, is much harder than 8 clubs fighting over 4 spaces (especially when Arse, Manure and Chavs all having the experience of being there before, that is why it is so hard to break into the top 4, and you cannot just buy your way in, it does not guarantee success).

Right nice to meet you all.... I must do some work!!!!

 

[Shaelumstash]

Absolutely absurd that all our expenses are published with no mention of our income. Very mis-leading and clearly just written as a headline grabber with no substance at all.

 

[bobrivers]

The point is, if your owners work the same way (even allowing a little for inflation), it is going to take at least 5 years if not longer due to the economic climate to get to that break even/operating within your means level to satisfy UEFA and Platini....

Meanwhile having looked at the regs for this UEFA will not allow things like £150m shirt sponsorship deals, £1m executive seats in the ground, £50m advertising hoardings as these would not represent fair and value.... compared to every other club....

Far be it from me to say what's right or wrong way to do things, but CL qualification is a must sooner rather than later.... which is not going to be easy, Spurs, Pool, Everton also in that mix (I think Arse, Manure, Chavs are still the best 3 in the PL)

Hi there marc,

I see that you're another Spurs fan that doesn't seem to have a fucking clue what they are talking about :)

If you would have a looked a little harder at those UEFA regs, you would have read that any contract signed before 1 June 2010 will NOT be looked at in terms of balancing the finances. This is basically our whole squad with the exception of Yaya, Silva, Milner and Balo.

If you would have even the smallest amount of research into City, you would realise that we have the highest non-top four attendance, and have already signed large sponsorship deals with Aabar, Ferrostaal, Abu Dhabi Tourist Board, Umbro, Ethiad Airways etc. Some of these are the biggest deals of their kind in world football, and we haven't even done anything yet.

If you would have bothered to do some fact checking instead of the half arsed tabloid opinion that you seem to have conjured, you would realise that the Sheik has also converted his loans into equity meaning that City currently have zero debt and a huge squad full of saleable assets, with large scale continued investment in the business and footballing sides of the club. Perhaps you would like to visit the huge patches of land around our ground that we have just bought to build commercial ventures on? Or the estimated £1 BILLION investment with the creation of the East Manchester Development Board (co-chaired by Garry Cooke and the Council boss)?

We won't just meet Platini's regulations, we'll pass them with flying colours. Even the smallest amount of knowledge about the regulations or MCFC could have told you this.

Just because the contracts were signed before certain date doesn't mean they suddenly got off the books and disappear into a thin air. City are operating at the tremendous loss and even if you make it into the CL by the end of the season, whatever income that will bring by the time the new regulations take effect you are still going to be losing a fortune season after season. Your wage bill alone will eat up all the income and the sheik will have to continue to foot the major part of the bill.

Chelsea have been receiving major income from the domestic trophies and CL participation over the last seven years and we are still struggling to break even. I don't see how City are going to get it under control, whether you believe the tabloids or not you don't have to be a genius to realize your wage bill will continue to soar and even if sheik keeps writing debt off every year the club's expense bill will continue to put a hole in your annual budget you wouldn't be able to cover without serious help from the owner.

I think you overestimate the sponsorship deals and how much money they can bring. It will help a bit but it won't make a major difference, especially considering the magnitude of City's expenses. City owners have obviously many major companies which they could turn into fake sponsors but UEFA will be watching you like a hawk, I can assure you. Any deal which looks too good to be true will be scrutinized.

In short, if you only care about City becoming a major force and being on track to win trophies, you should be happy because it's obvious your owners wants the club to be very successful and are willing to spend big. But you have to wonder how does Gary Cook plan to turn this into a manageable situation in a two-three years' time when all the previous experience tells you it's not doable.

 

[Anonymous]

As much as I see what our friends from Spurs & Chelsea are saying, surely they too must consider the Sheikh and his team of business people/associates will not have gone into City without a plan, awareness and due diligence (including consideration of the regulatory bodies within the sport).

It has been well documented already but worth a mention to demonstrate his accumen, this is a man who made £1 billion PROFIT just by holding onto Barclays shares for 6 months, so I'm confident he's no fool.

Yes, deals will be scrutinized, however his companies are legion so a number of smaller scale sponsorships could reasonably sustain the wage bill alone. That said, I'm not aware the Sheikh owns/has influence in Jaguar or Malmaison and they are two brands we have recently tied up with.

Add to all this the £1 billion investment off the pitch in the surrounding area to the stadium where (according to UEFA regs) revenue streams can be included in the club's streams given certain caveats, then I would imagine we are 'home and hosed' to use horse racing parlance!

Good luck to Spurs & Chelsea in Europe this season lads; no need to be worried about our finances and UEFA though.

ps

Marcspurs - I don't mean this disrespectfully either - but if Spurs are such an attractive proposition, why have they not been snapped up yet?

 

[lancs blue]

Just to correct another bit of nonsense from the Spurs fan - The Champions League places for 2011/12 season are already set in stone so no matter how wank Spurs or anybody else are in Europe there will still be 4 spots available for next season. This seasons results effect the coefficients for 2012/13 and even then for England to fall below Germany or Italy would probably mean every single English club being knocked out at the earliest stage possible (I haven't done the math but just looking at the table I would actually hazard a guess that it is impossible for England to loose a spot based on how teams get on this season no matter what happens).

Coefficients are worked out on a rolling 5 year basis..... have you factored the good years like 2007/08 when Manure played Chavs, that high rating for that season disappears next season.....

A year ago we were 23 points ahead of Germany..... today the gap is 16 points.......

The estimated (as these things are based on actual results in European competition and not set in stone) co-efficients for 2011 gives a difference of 12 points to Germany and 2012 could be as little as 4 points.....

Now if English clubs do well then the chances are we will be fine, thanks to Fulham reaching the Europa League Final last season our coefficient was not dented too badly last season... it negated Liverpool, Manure and Arsenal's failings (in comparison to the previous 2 or 3 years)........

I don't want Arsenal or Chelsea to win the thing, but similarly reaching the KO stages helps us all in the long run..... you have to see that.

If all English teams get knocked out in the group stages of both competitions our coefficient will be seriously affected..... that allied to German clubs progressing to the KO stages for arguments sake could see them pass us in coefficient terms and therefore take our 4th place in the CL....

These things are not set in stone and are based on a rolling 5 year cycle...... the CL places for this season 1-4 are set as the season has started.... if Engish clubs fuck up this season then they could lose it for next season.....

8 clubs fighting for 3 spaces, I don't care how many top players you have or how is spent, is much harder than 8 clubs fighting over 4 spaces (especially when Arse, Manure and Chavs all having the experience of being there before, that is why it is so hard to break into the top 4, and you cannot just buy your way in, it does not guarantee success).

Right nice to meet you all.... I must do some work!!!!

Incorrect. A number of European countries have "summer" seasons that start in April before this seasons coefficient changes can be finalised so there IS a season's lag before the coefficient changes take effect. Hence the 2011/12 rankings are already in place and are unaffected by this season's results.

 

[DenisLawBackHeel74]

Sky alone are responsible for the ridiculous state of financial affairs in English football. They bludgeoned in, threw money at it and changed the face of football forever.

And who benefitted most? Manchester United, constantly spending more than anyone until Abramovitch came along. So what on earth Fergie is prattling on about, I don't know. Hypocrites all.

Sky created the climate where it is impossible to compete without major finance, now they're worried a bigger player is calling the shots. They've lost control.

I know this has been talked about before but Sky are not the only culprits IMO the ruination of football and the rocketing of transfer fees and salaries have been caused by the folllowing:-

1) Jimmy Hill - getting rid of the wage cap
2) Rags - Going to the stockmarket to get the funds needed to buy players to break the monopoly of Liverpool
3) Bin Dippers - being responsible for ending gate receipts to away teams home team keeping all monies.
4) Sky - sole tv rights for prem - those at the top receiving the most money
5) Uefa - Creation of Champions league and the distribution of money from tv rights again benefiting the bigger teams in Europe who already cream of the largest tv incomes in their own country.
6) Uefa - creating a cartel of teams whose income far exceed most other clubs and then bringing in financial regulations to keep them where they are.
7) FA / Prem League /Uefa - Bringing in regulations re squad sizes which place a high premium on home grown talent.


I suggest maybe not individually the above has seen destruction of football as it used to be but collectively all have played a major part in the situation we find ourselves today. If they were so concerned about the state of football and wanted a level playing field maybe taking the following two steps could resolve a lot of problems and make the competitions more competitive.

1) All sky money is divided equally (included TV revenues) among the prem league, so whether you finish top or bottom, whether you are telvised 10 times or twice all clubs receive the same amount. (will never happen)

2) All CL money including tv money to be shared equally by all clubs qualifying for the champions league whether you win te trophy or get knocked out in the early rounds

By sharing the money equally allows the lesser teams to buy better quality players and reduces the income of the few so that in years to come the playing field will be truly level.

an excellent post. agree with everything you said.

 

[mancity1]

As previous posters have written , the owners are interested in expanding their economic interests into an area of great revenue stream potential using in part a vehicle that by and large is non political and non intrusive to the majority of stakeholders and in sync with their value system and what better way than through a football club.

As a football club the abolition of a salary cap , the continuation of transfer fees and loan fees and other one off large items of expenditure not to mention the unequitable distribution of television monies and gate receipts will always ensure that any football club in the premiership will struggle to run at a profit in terms of direct overheads and revenue gained from the football operations on match days.

All football clubs rely on third parties to stay in existence and City are no different.

As long as the money you spend on players is well targeted and you employ the right people responsible for getting the best out of each individual and as a team on matchday the more money you have to that end the more success you will get on matchdays over the course of a full season.

Our owners are new to this scenario so mistakes will be made along the way but they didn't become wealthy by making the same mistakes too often so they will eventually get City to be at our most competitive relatively speaking sooner rather than later but it will not happen as soon as most of us would like it to.

If other wealthy owners come into the scene and by other clubs then again the landscape will change but it will be steady as she goes as far as City is concerned.

Successful clubs and sustained success take a long time to develop and City will be no different.

Lets enjoy the ride albeit many more bumps to come and be humble and grateful for any silverware that may come our way.

 

[VOOMER]

I don't welcome other teams fans to our forum, I really don't. To a man you all come here with an agenda, a well worn one. Pick holes where they don't exist and lie. Spurs are screwed, their plans for a stadium, highlight the location problems they have. Their club is in no way as financialy flush as their PR media goons would have us all believe and the continued reference to our balancing of the books, always ignores the reality of substantial ground developement. Both Real Madrid and barcelona, owe actually more than Utd and are both at the limit of their earning powers. Utd to be fair could still go for their own tv rights, as could City.
The question is, does anyone seriously think that our clubs owners haven't got an iron clad plan in place to pass any uefa regulations in this area? Thats right,no one does, including the shit stirring Spurs fans who have come on the forum today.

 

[Clevers]

I never cease to be amazed that the fans of other clubs and the media seem to think our owners have no business acumen whatsoever or that they have purchased the club as a hobby.