Suella Braverman - sacked as Home Secretary (p394)

[Zinchilla]

There is no way on the planet that labour will go for a move away from FPTP system as it all but removes the chance of them getting a majority in the future. As an asie FPTP has served the UK well and personally I think it should be maintained. Proportional Representation facilitated the rise of the Nazi party, if they had had FPTP things would likely have been very different.

I agree that Labour won’t go for reform if they win, they’ll get a taste and want the power. And that will be a huge mistake. Our current system does not reflect the country and leads to short sighted policy decisions and no long term thinking. It’s a game to maintain power, the status quo and a lobbyists dream.

I think the reason you mention is often a reason given to trash PR and it is partly born out of shit history teaching in the 80s as well as it being an easy argument for FPTP supporters to make. The Nazis got the largest vote share in the early 1930s and under FPRP would’ve had outright control I think. So many more factors were at play in that situation and since WW2 PR has served Germany quite well.

 

[Gabriel]

There is no way on the planet that labour will go for a move away from FPTP system as it all but removes the chance of them getting a majority in the future. As an asie FPTP has served the UK well and personally I think it should be maintained. Proportional Representation facilitated the rise of the Nazi party, if they had had FPTP things would likely have been very different.

Adding to @Zinchilla, as Goering reflected at his post-war trial, with 37.27% of the vote in 1932, they would have likely won every Reichstag seat under the British system.

Better to have a few loons from each fringe frothing in the chamber than have them outside stoking fires. The next thing you know, you’re offering them referendums on all manner of crackpot ideas, with winner-takes-all thrown in for good measure.

 

[johnnytapia]

The Conservative Party has been hijacked. The only one that doesn’t see it is the one at the top of the pile.

And those who are stuck in the 70s.

1870s

 

[bowp]

I agree that Labour won’t go for reform if they win, they’ll get a taste and want the power. And that will be a huge mistake. Our current system does not reflect the country and leads to short sighted policy decisions and no long term thinking. It’s a game to maintain power, the status quo and a lobbyists dream.

I think the reason you mention is often a reason given to trash PR and it is partly born out of shit history teaching in the 80s as well as it being an easy argument for FPTP supporters to make. The Nazis got the largest vote share in the early 1930s and under FPRP would’ve had outright control I think. So many more factors were at play in that situation and since WW2 PR has served Germany quite well.

Whilst PR wasnt the reason for Nazi Germany it facilitated it.

1928 the Nazi party got less than 3% of the vote - 12 seats (FPTP they would have got none)
1930 they got 18.3% - 95 seats (FPTP) they would have got a handful if any (all in East Prussia).
1932 they got 37% - 230 seats - this point they would have had a lot under FPTP.
1932 (second time round) they got 33% - 196 seats - again a lot under FPTP.
1933 43% - 288 seats - again a lot under FPTP
1933 (second time round) 92% all the seats.

So 2 things that proportional representation did.

1) it allowed the Nazi party to enter the national stage and win seats in the first place to build off.
2) it was such a crap system that it prevented secure governments requiring so many elections over such a short period. If they had FPTP the SPD would have won easily in 1928 and the NAZI party would have remained a non entity.

 

[bowp]

Adding to @Zinchilla, as Goering reflected at his post-war trial, with 37.27% of the vote in 1932, they would have likely won every Reichstag seat under the British system.

Better to have a few loons from each fringe frothing in the chamber than have them outside stoking fires. The next thing you know, you’re offering them referendums on all manner of crackpot ideas, with winner-takes-all thrown in for good measure.

The point is they wounldnt have got 37.27 of the vote in 1932 if they hadnt held seats in the previous elections. Also there wouldnt even had been an election in 1932 for them to win!

 

[Palerider]

He was calling out the use of dangerous language, very simple, so I don’t follow your KKK and party gate analogies. He shouldn’t have mentioned Germany as it is very difficult to put that context and nuance into a tweet as you’ve just proved. With regards to ‘project fear’ that was a phrase created by the Leave group, not the Remain, so again I don’t follow your analogy. If you mean the remain politicians pointing out the pitfalls of leaving the EU, then I wouldn’t say they were creating fear - just pointing out the obvious - and although they did a terrible job of it they have now been proven right.
I disagree that Labour would be the ‘hate filled cunts’ as you say they would be if they win the next GE. There are good and bad politicians on all sides obviously, but I think they would take a more pragmatic approach than the dogmatic lot who’ve done a shit job for 13 years. But positive change will only happen when we get a system of government which fits the 21st century. Giving power to one ideology because they win about 33% of the vote is madness. I’d like to see the best politicians from all sides working together, fuck the tribalism, and if Labour do win the next GE and don’t then push for parliamentary reform then the current election cycle will simply repeat.
With climate change, in my old life I was a lobbyist, the firm I worked for lobbied for an oil company, pushing the line that the science wasn’t clear cut. The oil company knew it was clear cut.

Very well argued and although I do not agree with some of your comments I do respect those views. My only correction is that my 'hate filled cunts' comments were aimed at the hard left rather than Labour. I'm a Labour vote and will continue to be but I do not expect politicians to perform miracles.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

I’m guessing it means right wing Tory supporting? It’s the only way his post makes sense.

Yeah, ignorant cunts don’t know the true honourable meaning of the word.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

He was calling out the use of dangerous language, very simple, so I don’t follow your KKK and party gate analogies. He shouldn’t have mentioned Germany as it is very difficult to put that context and nuance into a tweet as you’ve just proved. With regards to ‘project fear’ that was a phrase created by the Leave group, not the Remain, so again I don’t follow your analogy. If you mean the remain politicians pointing out the pitfalls of leaving the EU, then I wouldn’t say they were creating fear - just pointing out the obvious - and although they did a terrible job of it they have now been proven right.
I disagree that Labour would be the ‘hate filled cunts’ as you say they would be if they win the next GE. There are good and bad politicians on all sides obviously, but I think they would take a more pragmatic approach than the dogmatic lot who’ve done a shit job for 13 years. But positive change will only happen when we get a system of government which fits the 21st century. Giving power to one ideology because they win about 33% of the vote is madness. I’d like to see the best politicians from all sides working together, fuck the tribalism, and if Labour do win the next GE and don’t then push for parliamentary reform then the current election cycle will simply repeat.
With climate change, in my old life I was a lobbyist, the firm I worked for lobbied for an oil company, pushing the line that the science wasn’t clear cut. The oil company knew it was clear cut.

Fucking brilliant post.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I’m guessing it means right wing Tory supporting? It’s the only way his post makes sense.

It’s such an utterly wank word. Even more so, now it’s been appropriated by gammons.

 

[woody1968]

He was calling out the use of dangerous language, very simple, so I don’t follow your KKK and party gate analogies. He shouldn’t have mentioned Germany as it is very difficult to put that context and nuance into a tweet as you’ve just proved. With regards to ‘project fear’ that was a phrase created by the Leave group, not the Remain, so again I don’t follow your analogy. If you mean the remain politicians pointing out the pitfalls of leaving the EU, then I wouldn’t say they were creating fear - just pointing out the obvious - and although they did a terrible job of it they have now been proven right.
I disagree that Labour would be the ‘hate filled cunts’ as you say they would be if they win the next GE. There are good and bad politicians on all sides obviously, but I think they would take a more pragmatic approach than the dogmatic lot who’ve done a shit job for 13 years. But positive change will only happen when we get a system of government which fits the 21st century. Giving power to one ideology because they win about 33% of the vote is madness. I’d like to see the best politicians from all sides working together, fuck the tribalism, and if Labour do win the next GE and don’t then push for parliamentary reform then the current election cycle will simply repeat.
With climate change, in my old life I was a lobbyist, the firm I worked for lobbied for an oil company, pushing the line that the science wasn’t clear cut. The oil company knew it was clear cut.

In the words of my old city supporting labour voting dad - abso bloody lutely - great post - common sense must eventually prevail or this could just become ground hog day