Suella Braverman - sacked as Home Secretary (p394)

[domalino]

Is there a bit of truth in what he says, yes, but there is a little bit of truth in what covid vaccine deniers believe, or climate deniers believe.

No.

 

[ZenHalfTimeCrock]

What a fascinating documentary, if a little scary.

Unfortunately, it has left me rather pessimistic about the future of our species.

In terms of evolutionary psychology, we still think tribalistically. Our responses tend to be emotive, pre-rational and are more or less instantaneous. Any rationality that is brought to the situation tends to be post-hoc, deployed to justify our gut feelings when it comes to matters of politics, ethics and aesthetics in order to justify them.

As Jonathan Haidt has noted, right-wing populists are adept at tapping in to those tribalistic, divisive sentiments and exploiting them, more so than those on the Left. They are better at making us turn on each other.

Meanwhile, the problems we face (climate change, nuclear proliferation, migrancy, the inherent instability of the world economy etc.) require an acknowledgement of our global interdependency that is just not going to happen with this primitive mentality that we have inherited from our ancestors.

 

[BobKowalski]

If they believe his populist pronouncements then Yes. Look, Lineker is a social media influencer who aims to please his followers (virtually calling the tories Nazis seems to have given those followers a big hard on, no?) but if he talks utter garbage then he needs calling out otherwise people would believe him and that is dangerous. Is there a bit of truth in what he says, yes, but there is a little bit of truth in what covid vaccine deniers believe, or climate deniers believe. Basically there is not enough truth in what he says to merit the saying. It's manipulation.

I’ll say this for Gary. Twenty-fours later and his one simple tweet is still triggering a certain section of the population. The power of words and all that.

Can we make it another day of obsessing over Gary’s tweet? Is Gary’s tweet a sort of Rorschach test for Nazi’s?

Stay tuned.

 

[Palerider]

No.

There has never been and never will be a vaccine that is 100% safe. So although for 99.9999% the vaccine is a no brainer for those individuals who die because of an adverse reaction to the vaccine it may not have been a great idea.

 

[domalino]

There has never been and never will be a vaccine that is 100% safe. So although for 99.9999% the vaccine is a no brainer for those individuals who die because of an adverse reaction to the vaccine it may not have been a great idea.

That's not a valid reason to be anti-vax.

There's never been a mode of transport that's 100% safe, do you never leave your house?

There's a risk involved in taking paracetamol, ibuprofen, aspirin - do you never take those?

 

[domalino]

Unfortunately, it has left me rather pessimistic about the future of our species.

In terms of evolutionary psychology, we still think tribalistically. Our responses tend to be emotive, pre-rational and are more or less instantaneous. Any rationality that is brought to the situation tends to be post-hoc, deployed to justify our gut feelings when it comes to matters of politics, ethics and aesthetics in order to justify them.

As Jonathan Haidt has noted, right-wing populists are adept at tapping in to those tribalistic, divisive sentiments and exploiting them, more so than those on the Left. They are better at making us turn on each other.

Meanwhile, the problems we face (climate change, nuclear proliferation, migrancy, the inherent instability of the world economy etc.) require an acknowledgement of our global interdependency that is just not going to happen with this primitive mentality that we have inherited from our ancestors.

Arnie will cheer you up a bit.

 

[Palerider]

That's not a valid reason to be anti-vax.

There's never been a mode of transport that's 100% safe, do you never leave your house?

There's a risk involved in taking paracetamol, ibuprofen, aspirin - do you never take those?

Fear of Death is not a valid reason?

 

[domalino]

Fear of Death is not a valid reason?

No. An irrational fear of dying from something far safer than a dozen things you do every day is not a reason to be an anti-vax conspiracy twat.

 

[rabby]

It's funny isn't it, how when actual holocaust survivor Joan Salter told Braverman her rhetoric was reminiscent of 1930's Germany no one went crazy. No one said she was bringing up the holocaust (because she didn't). No one trying to sell a book said "Shame on you!".

Incidentally, this same woman who thinks Lineker mentioning 1930's Germany is out of line had no problem linking Jeremy Corbyn to the holocaust...







It's very convenient for the ERG and Tories to pretend he brought up the holocaust, or was referring to it, because it mean no one can ever warn about the descent into fascism because it's not reached the stage of genocide yet.

Look let's pull back from the despair.
What started as questions over whether Lineker was judicious in his choice of words, has got way out of control.
This thread has got to the point of becoming a competition of who can come up with the most apocalyptic scenario.Discussion about the possibility of us descending into a fascist state.
While mankind should always be on guard to ensure we fight against extreme opinions from whatever political standpoint,you ,I,and most others on here know this is not where this country is headed.
We have a ham-fisted government stumbling from one crisis to the next that needs put out of it's misery.But this is a far cry from some of the nonsense predicted on here.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Meanwhile, the problems we face (climate change, nuclear proliferation, migrancy, the inherent instability of the world economy etc.) require an acknowledgement of our global interdependency that is just not going to happen with this primitive mentality that we have inherited from our ancestors.

I don't think there is anything going to be done to stop these problems beyond action-free slogans.
As an example, the UK parliament will trash the COP suggestions into irrelevance or just not bother putting them forward to put into law because it will cost money.

It needs an international single focus at the time that several places are becoming more isolationist.

 

[domalino]

Look let's pull back from the despair.
What started as questions over whether Lineker was judicious in his choice of words, has got way out of control.
This thread has got to the point of becoming a competition of who can come up with the most apocalyptic scenario.Discussion about the possibility of us descending into a fascist state.
While mankind should always be on guard to ensure we fight against extreme opinions from whatever political standpoint,you ,I,and most others on here know this is not where this country is headed.
We have a ham-fisted government stumbling from one crisis to the next that needs put out of it's misery.But this is a far cry from some of the nonsense predicted on here.

We have a government that has completely gutted our right to protest peacefully. That is openly waging war on the Human Rights Act that guarantees all of our core freedoms. That has followed on from withdrawing us from the EU by attempting to abandon international conventions set up in the 50's to protect against the atrocities of the previous 50 years. That boastfully announces and passes laws which are illegal and then declares lawyers and judges who defend us to be "public enemies".


Now we're seeing them draught in voter supression ideas from the United States with this voter ID law that discriminates against younger, poorer, disenfranchised people who are less likely to vote for them. They've already coopted dark money of right wing American billionaires and political action groups whose entire purpose it to spread conflict with the establishment of the Tufton Street lot. They've already illegally harvested people's data to run targetted propaganda campaigns on them with Cambridge Analytica.

The ERG wing of the Tory party are right wing authoritarians intent on isolating Britain from the rest of the world and bulldozing every established right and protection we have to fulfill their jingoistic fantasy of a Britain that never existed and pocket every last penny they can.


I think anyone who believes we're not heading in an incredibly dangerous direction is not just naive but wilfully ignorant at this point.

 

[Gabriel]

One thing that is consistent is that the government really is struggling with the practicalities. Be it the law, the processing, the detention, the repatriation, or even the deportation to third countries, whenever a representative is questioned on practicalities, they start gulping for air and just warble on about how dreadfully terrible the situation is.

 

[ZenHalfTimeCrock]

Arnie will cheer you up a bit.

He certainly did. That was enormously uplifting. Thanks for posting it. What that Auschwitz survivor said at the end and Arnie's point about conquering the dark side of our minds reminded me of what another survivor, the psychiatrist Viktor Frankl once said:

‘We who lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of human freedoms – to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances.’

 

[rabby]

We have a government that has completely gutted our right to protest peacefully. That is openly waging war on the Human Rights Act that guarantees all of our core freedoms. That has followed on from withdrawing us from the EU by attempting to abandon international conventions set up in the 50's to protect against the atrocities of the previous 50 years. That boastfully announces and passes laws which are illegal and then declares lawyers and judges who defend us to be "public enemies".


Now we're seeing them draught in voter supression ideas from the United States with this voter ID law that discriminates against younger, poorer, disenfranchised people who are less likely to vote for them. They've already coopted dark money of right wing American Billionaires and political action groups whose entire purpose it to spread conflict with the establishment of the Tufton Street lot.

The ERG wing of the Tory party are right wing authoritarians intent on isolating Britain from the rest of the world and bulldozing every established right and protection we have to fulfill their jingoistic fantasy of a Britain that never existed.


I think anyone who believes we're not heading in an incredible dangerous direction is not just naive but wilfully ignorant at this point.

And there was me suggesting pulling back from despair.
I fear you are one of those who isn't happy unless you are unhappy.
The Tories will be booted out at the next election and hopefully you will be able to sleep at night.
But for fuck sake calm down.

 

[oldius]

One thing that is consistent is that the government really is struggling with the practicalities. Be it the law, the processing, the detention, the repatriation, or even the deportation to third countries, whenever a representative is questioned on practicalities, they start gulping for air and just warble on about how dreadfully terrible the situation is.

And that is precisely because they know that they are creating policy ideas and legislation that will fail. They are deliberately doing it so that they can blame other groups - lefties, lefty lawyers, the French, and so on. The warbling about how terrible it is belies their thirteen years in power, again in some blame-shift exercise, and the practicalities don't matter, because the policy will never emerge, and that will be someone else's fault.

 

[TinFoilHat]

The protests about what he said are pure obfuscation, they are a smokescreen for fundamental economic and social failings. This is standard practice, and all part of government culture war strategy. They want that, so the nation turns on each other and they build a wall of excuses for their failings - it's the wokes, the lefty lawyers, the civil servants, the French and the snowflakes, not their 'destined to fail' new bill that they ABSOLUTELY KNOW is in breach of international law.

Which they will use politically to get the Gammonati voting for them.

"Why should foreigners dictate their rules to us.." etc

Expect 30p to be the official secretary of Gammon affairs to ramp the hate up.

Migrants will die in this country because of the rhetoric whilst the compliant media spin it as line wolf attacks.

 

[Gabriel]

And that is precisely because they know that they are creating policy ideas and legislation that will fail. They are deliberately doing it so that they can blame other groups - lefties, lefty lawyers, the French, and so on. The warbling about how terrible it is belies their thirteen years in power, again in some blame-shift exercise, and the practicalities don't matter, because the policy will never emerge, and that will be someone else's fault.

Yet even the one thing that is entirely within its remit, detention, seems to be too difficult for the U.K. government. When Cleverly was pressed this morning on where people would be detained, he couldn’t answer the question and started warbling on about how all of the people do not arrive at once, so it’s not as if thousands will need to be detained simultaneously. However, that ignores the reality that there are already many thousands in hotels, who would presumably have to be detained elsewhere. The local desire to get them out of hotels is after all one of the driving factors, but the NIMBY effect will just appear elsewhere.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

One thing that is consistent is that the government really is struggling with the practicalities. Be it the law, the processing, the detention, the repatriation, or even the deportation to third countries, whenever a representative is questioned on practicalities, they start gulping for air and just warble on about how dreadfully terrible the situation is.

It seems staggering that I have not heard any govt minister indicate that hiring more people to deal with the backlog is an option. That very much implies that they won't spend money on this.

The utter refusal to actually answer "how does someone apply for asylum legally" also shows the mindset that is in place.

The idea that a significant number will be assessed by questionnaire (in English) instead of interview is truly nuts, but will allow them to reject people who have failed to understand the questions.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

One thing that is consistent is that the government really is struggling with the practicalities. Be it the law, the processing, the detention, the repatriation, or even the deportation to third countries, whenever a representative is questioned on practicalities, they start gulping for air and just warble on about how dreadfully terrible the situation is.

Because like in every other area of public service, they talk a good game but refuse to properly fund anything. Because they don't believe in public service, they just believe in enriching themselves and their donors.

The difference in this case of course is that they're being deliberately incompetent to create a crisis that will distract from every other aspect of governance that they've abjectly failed at for the past 12 years. If they actually solve the immigration problem, then who's going to vote for them? Not even the racists at that point.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

And that is precisely because they know that they are creating policy ideas and legislation that will fail. They are deliberately doing it so that they can blame other groups - lefties, lefty lawyers, the French, and so on. The warbling about how terrible it is belies their thirteen years in power, again in some blame-shift exercise, and the practicalities don't matter, because the policy will never emerge, and that will be someone else's fault.

And that the cost of doing it (and fixing so many other things) can and will be blamed on the next govt.

I saw something this week that the govt currently have nothing going on. There is so little Commons business that the days often end very early.