Tactical discussion

[Anonymous]

The fluid 442/4231 that MP is implementing will take time for the team to adapt to but it is the way forward as Bayern and Dortmund are showing us.

The past 3 games with Kompany being out has meant that Yaya has generally sat deeper to protect the back 4. v Newcastle both Yaya and Fern were both given license to get forward knowing that Kompany would be able to move out of the back 4 and into a DM position (not role) should the need arise. The last few games has seen the centre-back change each time and as the understanding between them is not perfect Yaya has been asked to patrol the area in front of them (FWIW I think it should have been Garcia and Nasty for all 3 games, Lescott does not suit this defensive system). Once Kompany and Demichelis return we’ll again see the kind of performance we delivered v Newcastle.

I disagree that Yaya is better when played further forward. I always saw this tactic as a last throw of the dice and only worked on the odd occasion v lesser opposition.

United play a traditional 442 using 2 out and out wingers and that, along with a shocking central midfield allowed us to dominate possession and overrun them during Mancini’s tenure. It was a main reason for their failings in Europe too and is why they will fail again. Moyes isn’t a progressive manager and I don’t think it’ll be too long before we see him implement the type of system he had at Everton.

The changes made v Stoke show that w getting out of the CL league is a main priority. What I would have preferred to see though would have been Jovetic on the left playing the Silva role and Nasri playing as the ‘number 10’ being given they type of freedom we saw Aguero have when he came on.

It’s a work in progress and we’re still ticking along. Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs will all drop away just as we find our feet. We’ll also beat United fairly convincingly on Sunday.

I agree completely about us missing Vinny and its knock on effect tactically in MP's system.

 

[Matt the Giant]

The fluid 442/4231 that MP is implementing will take time for the team to adapt to but it is the way forward as Bayern and Dortmund are showing us.

The past 3 games with Kompany being out has meant that Yaya has generally sat deeper to protect the back 4. v Newcastle both Yaya and Fern were both given license to get forward knowing that Kompany would be able to move out of the back 4 and into a DM position (not role) should the need arise. The last few games has seen the centre-back change each time and as the understanding between them is not perfect Yaya has been asked to patrol the area in front of them (FWIW I think it should have been Garcia and Nasty for all 3 games, Lescott does not suit this defensive system). Once Kompany and Demichelis return we’ll again see the kind of performance we delivered v Newcastle.

I disagree that Yaya is better when played further forward. I always saw this tactic as a last throw of the dice and only worked on the odd occasion v lesser opposition.

United play a traditional 442 using 2 out and out wingers and that, along with a shocking central midfield allowed us to dominate possession and overrun them during Mancini’s tenure. It was a main reason for their failings in Europe too and is why they will fail again. Moyes isn’t a progressive manager and I don’t think it’ll be too long before we see him implement the type of system he had at Everton.

The changes made v Stoke show that w getting out of the CL league is a main priority. What I would have preferred to see though would have been Jovetic on the left playing the Silva role and Nasri playing as the ‘number 10’ being given they type of freedom we saw Aguero have when he came on.

It’s a work in progress and we’re still ticking along. Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs will all drop away just as we find our feet. We’ll also beat United fairly convincingly on Sunday.

I agree completely about us missing Vinny and its knock on effect tactically in MP's system.

If true, that must be a sign of desperate weakness. If we go from brilliant to poor just because of ONE player's absence we are in deep shit.

Other top teams cope, Barcelona without Messi is still a fantastic side. Slur Alex played rather weak players yet still managed to get wins.
And that's what I'm missing, what I have been longing for for quite some time now; that machine-like efficiency, the force to break down any opponent no matter our starting XI. Sure we'll drop points every now and then, but I still expect us to play well on every single occasion.

 

[Anonymous]

If true, that must be a sign of desperate weakness. If we go from brilliant to poor just because of ONE player's absence we are in deep shit.

It's certainly a weakness right now, compounded by the injuries to Demichelis/Miach. However this is partially due to the fact that it's a new manager trying to instil a new vision in the team. In a convoluted way i'm trying to say I don't expect in a six months time for an injury to Vinny to have the same knock on effect it's having currently.

 

[sh249]

The fluid 442/4231 that MP is implementing will take time for the team to adapt to but it is the way forward as Bayern and Dortmund are showing us.

The past 3 games with Kompany being out has meant that Yaya has generally sat deeper to protect the back 4. v Newcastle both Yaya and Fern were both given license to get forward knowing that Kompany would be able to move out of the back 4 and into a DM position (not role) should the need arise. The last few games has seen the centre-back change each time and as the understanding between them is not perfect Yaya has been asked to patrol the area in front of them (FWIW I think it should have been Garcia and Nasty for all 3 games, Lescott does not suit this defensive system). Once Kompany and Demichelis return we’ll again see the kind of performance we delivered v Newcastle.

I disagree that Yaya is better when played further forward. I always saw this tactic as a last throw of the dice and only worked on the odd occasion v lesser opposition.

United play a traditional 442 using 2 out and out wingers and that, along with a shocking central midfield allowed us to dominate possession and overrun them during Mancini’s tenure. It was a main reason for their failings in Europe too and is why they will fail again. Moyes isn’t a progressive manager and I don’t think it’ll be too long before we see him implement the type of system he had at Everton.

The changes made v Stoke show that w getting out of the CL league is a main priority. What I would have preferred to see though would have been Jovetic on the left playing the Silva role and Nasri playing as the ‘number 10’ being given they type of freedom we saw Aguero have when he came on.

It’s a work in progress and we’re still ticking along. Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs will all drop away just as we find our feet. We’ll also beat United fairly convincingly on Sunday.

I agree completely about us missing Vinny and its knock on effect tactically in MP's system.

If true, that must be a sign of desperate weakness. If we go from brilliant to poor just because of ONE player's absence we are in deep shit.

Other top teams cope, Barcelona without Messi is still a fantastic side. Slur Alex played rather weak players yet still managed to get wins.
And that's what I'm missing, what I have been longing for for quite some time now; that machine-like efficiency, the force to break down any opponent no matter our starting XI. Sure we'll drop points every now and then, but I still expect us to play well on every single occasion.

It is defintely worrying, but I think it's true to a large extent. In the last three matches (and especially the last two) the problem - to my mind - hasn't been a high defensive line, but that we've defended too deep. The distance between defence and attack has been far too big, leaving the midfielders with an almost impossible job, making it far too easy for opponents to get the ball into players in front of the defence, and making it difficult for us to play any kind of sharp football (players too far away from one another). Getting Vinny back will hopefully help on that front - once he and Silva are back in, I expect (hope?) things will start to click.

 

[toffee balls]

We played both last season and now this with 2 up top.

Is there another top team in Europe that play this way.

I'm struggling to think of one.

 

[ROCKET80]

If true, that must be a sign of desperate weakness. If we go from brilliant to poor just because of ONE player's absence we are in deep shit.

It's certainly a weakness right now, compounded by the injuries to Demichelis/Miach. However this is partially due to the fact that it's a new manager trying to instil a new vision in the team. In a convoluted way i'm trying to say I don't expect in a six months time for an injury to Vinny to have the same knock on effect it's having currently.

I agree with you Billy.

Barcelona, Real, Bayern, Dortmund, Juve etc have been playing a style of football for the past few years that everyone at the club is used to. When players are misisng those who know their role inside out can step in. The same with the rags and the fact that Camelgob and Vidic are 2 exceptional defenders and it could be argued at one point were the best partnership in the world (till age and injuries have got the better of them).

Kompany is our only true 'world class' (I hate that term) centre-half. He can adapt quicly to new tactics and is influence is also a major factor. Nastasic is brilliant but is still young and learning his trade and it'll take him a little longer to get used to the new system. Adding Demichelis gives us the experience and leadership to help Nasty and Lescott should Kompany be missed again.

On another note the Makalele/DeJong role is a thing of the past. Yaya I see being deployed as more of a deep lying playmaker in Pirlo/Alonso style. Added with his ability to go on a lung busting run this gives the opposing midfield something more to think about, stand off him and allow him to dictate the play or close him down and run the risk of him exploding past you.

We're on a learning curve and with games coming thick and fast now we'll get more used to it adn performances will improve, or I could be talking a load of old arse :-)

 

[LoveCity]

We played both last season and now this with 2 up top.

Is there another top team in Europe that play this way.

I'm struggling to think of one.

Well, Juve play Vucinic and Tevez together in their 3-5-2 and are doing well so far. But most top sides favour only one striker.

 

[toffee balls]

We played both last season and now this with 2 up top.

Is there another top team in Europe that play this way.

I'm struggling to think of one.

Well, Juve play Vucinic and Tevez together in their 3-5-2 and are doing well so far. But most top sides favour only one striker.

Not too many is there.

I' m not saying it is a bad or good thing but we are certainly setting up differently than most.
Pelli mentioned he liked to play 2 up top in a 4-2-2-2 mainly ( new one on me that one) or sometimes a 4-2-3-1 but with flexibility for the players to interchange as they see fit.

We have seen no fluidity as yet but this will get better with time.

What I also noticed in the two home games is that Fernandinho is sat 10 yards in front of Yaya and at times had no idea of how to dovetail with him as his back was constantly turned on him.

We have played a lot of faith in the key relationship between those 2 players.

If that partnership fails we are in a spot of bother.

 

[ROCKET80]

We played both last season and now this with 2 up top.

Is there another top team in Europe that play this way.

I'm struggling to think of one.

Bayern are the most obvious with Muller playing in the hole behind Mandzukic. Dortmund generally had Gotze there with Lewandowski (they now have Reus and a few others than can switch there too). Real at times had Ronaldo in the hole and I think they've started this way this season with Isco looking at being played more on the right.

This is how I think MP sets us up - Aguero or Jovetic in the hole off Dzeko or Negrado.

 

[toffee balls]

We played both last season and now this with 2 up top.

Is there another top team in Europe that play this way.

I'm struggling to think of one.

Well, Juve play Vucinic and Tevez together in their 3-5-2 and are doing well so far. But most top sides favour only one striker.

Not too many is there.

I' m not saying it is a bad or good thing but we are certainly setting up differently than most.
Pelli mentioned he liked to play 2 up top in a 4-2-2-2 mainly ( new one on me that one) or sometimes a 4-2-3-1 but with flexibility for the players to interchange as they see fit.

We have seen no fluidity as yet but this will get better with time.

What I also noticed in the two home games is that Fernandinho is sat 10 yards in front of Yaya and at times had no idea of how to dovetail with him as his back was constantly turned on him.

We have played a lot of faith in the key relationship between those 2 players.

If that partnership fails we are in a spot of bother.