Tactical discussion

[ballinio]

In an odd kind of way I preferred the Mancini style of play, whether it was called 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 or a fliud 4-4-2, whatever, it seemd to work in terms of controlling possession in midfield and helping to create lots of chances last season and the season before.

Whenever I went to the Etihad (as a season card holder) I rarely felt apprehensive about the result of the game, the only issue was whether we would win by a single goal or by a bigger margin.

But even before the league winning season during the FA Cup winning year, we played a slightly more defensive approach, with YaYa playing a more advanced midfield position, even though we didn't score lots, we rarley looked like losing a game and were always seemingly in control.

Unfortunately this has all changed in a very big way since Pelligrini's arrival, we look weak in defence (a total shambles at times), the midfield no longer controls matches leaving the defence even more exposed and we've recently stopped creating chances for the forwards, which is an even bigger concern. We simply don't look in control of games now.

I'm failing to understand how the new tactics will work at the moment.

It seemed to me that there was nothing seriously wrong with the previous way of playing, apart from injecting a bit of pace or "zip" to the passing and build up. so just a little tweaking was required, not wholesale changes from our new manager.

Pelligrini is probably used to dealing with players in Spain, who are on average more intelligent and technically gifted and who are capable of playing a game with various tactics, albeit at a slightly slower pace, whereas frankly the EPL is faster and the players in our team (especially the British ones), I suspect are as thick as planks and simply can't adapt to the tactics the manager wants.

I think the manager will have to go back to the drawing board and start again I'm afraid.

The report card from me is "C- Manuel must do better".

I'm seriously not looking forward to the dery on Sunday, it could be 1-6 to the scum the way things appear right now.

Well done Eaglechief I think you have nailed it perfectly, I agree totally.The worry is thet Pellegrini wont see this because we are looking worse with every game.

 

[Eccles Blue]

So, we have spent so many 100s of millions of pounds on players and if one player, Kompany, is injured we fall apart is the consensus I seem to be getting from most of these posts!!

Why did we bother buying all these others then? We might as well have stuck with the players we had and just wrapped Kompany in cotton wool!!

Anyone who knows me will tell you that Vincent Kompany is my favourite player so I am not slagging him off, or actually any individual in the team, I have said and will keep on saying that they have to show committment, ok a new 'system' is being implemented and we have to get the players (notice the plural there guys) to adapt to that but as professionals it shouldn't take them this long.

If I employ someone I give them time to learn the ropes and then assess how they are doing after a month or 6 weeks. These players have had Mr Pellegrini since July/August and have played pre-season for him as well as the games in the Premiership. It's time they knew what system they are using and get on with it!! IMHO

 

[Blue Elmo]

For the time being I think we need to sacrifice a striker and put another man in the middle. Whilst Aguero is here, there seems a God given right that he will play, unless he is being rested or is injured. With Pellegrini wanting to play either Negredo or Dzeko, it means that if Aguero was to play we will play with 2 strikers, forcing us to then also to put 2 in the middle and end up getting overrun. Aguero is a top player, a top top player, but he can't play up top alone cause playing with width and putting crosses in the box would be pointless as he won't win any headers. So the only solution if you want to fit him in, whilst keeping some balance in the midfield, is to play him wide left, and that is something I don't see happening. So to incorporate Aguero we have to play a 2 man central midfield pairing, and unless Pellegrini is willing to leave him out, I don't see us changing our system.

Ideally I want Aguero in the team as he is a unique player who can turn a game on its head in a second. But unless he shifts wide, I don't see how we can have him in the team, yet have some balance. For the time being I'd like to see:

--------------------------------------------Hart--------------------------------------------
Zaba-----------------Kompany ----------------Nastastic---------------Clichy
----------------------------Yaya----------------------Fernandinho-------------
Navas----------------------------------Silva------------------------------Jovetic
----------------------------------------Negredo-----------------------------------

I think we just need to get some stability and once we have that, and grasp what Pellegrini wants, then we can revert back

 

[super_city_si]

In an odd kind of way I preferred the Mancini style of play, whether it was called 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 or a fliud 4-4-2, whatever, it seemd to work in terms of controlling possession in midfield and helping to create lots of chances last season and the season before.

Whenever I went to the Etihad (as a season card holder) I rarely felt apprehensive about the result of the game, the only issue was whether we would win by a single goal or by a bigger margin.

But even before the league winning season during the FA Cup winning year, we played a slightly more defensive approach, with YaYa playing a more advanced midfield position, even though we didn't score lots, we rarley looked like losing a game and were always seemingly in control.

Unfortunately this has all changed in a very big way since Pelligrini's arrival, we look weak in defence (a total shambles at times), the midfield no longer controls matches leaving the defence even more exposed and we've recently stopped creating chances for the forwards, which is an even bigger concern. We simply don't look in control of games now.

I'm failing to understand how the new tactics will work at the moment.

It seemed to me that there was nothing seriously wrong with the previous way of playing, apart from injecting a bit of pace or "zip" to the passing and build up. so just a little tweaking was required, not wholesale changes from our new manager.

Pelligrini is probably used to dealing with players in Spain, who are on average more intelligent and technically gifted and who are capable of playing a game with various tactics, albeit at a slightly slower pace, whereas frankly the EPL is faster and the players in our team (especially the British ones), I suspect are as thick as planks and simply can't adapt to the tactics the manager wants.

I think the manager will have to go back to the drawing board and start again I'm afraid.

The report card from me is "C- Manuel must do better".

I'm seriously not looking forward to the dery on Sunday, it could be 1-6 to the scum the way things appear right now.

A lot of our team is either Spanish or has played in Spain. I think a lot of our trouble is playing players out of position to fit a system. It was far from perfect at times under Mancini but when it was clicking was when we had a dynamic 3 behind the striker and they 'floated' between positions.

For start, I'd like to see Silva in the free central role. He's wasted out left. let him get the ball and dictate play.

 

[ROCKET80]

The fluid 442/4231 that MP is implementing will take time for the team to adapt to but it is the way forward as Bayern and Dortmund are showing us.

The past 3 games with Kompany being out has meant that Yaya has generally sat deeper to protect the back 4. v Newcastle both Yaya and Fern were both given license to get forward knowing that Kompany would be able to move out of the back 4 and into a DM position (not role) should the need arise. The last few games has seen the centre-back change each time and as the understanding between them is not perfect Yaya has been asked to patrol the area in front of them (FWIW I think it should have been Garcia and Nasty for all 3 games, Lescott does not suit this defensive system). Once Kompany and Demichelis return we’ll again see the kind of performance we delivered v Newcastle.

I disagree that Yaya is better when played further forward. I always saw this tactic as a last throw of the dice and only worked on the odd occasion v lesser opposition.

United play a traditional 442 using 2 out and out wingers and that, along with a shocking central midfield allowed us to dominate possession and overrun them during Mancini’s tenure. It was a main reason for their failings in Europe too and is why they will fail again. Moyes isn’t a progressive manager and I don’t think it’ll be too long before we see him implement the type of system he had at Everton.

The changes made v Stoke show that w getting out of the CL league is a main priority. What I would have preferred to see though would have been Jovetic on the left playing the Silva role and Nasri playing as the ‘number 10’ being given they type of freedom we saw Aguero have when he came on.

It’s a work in progress and we’re still ticking along. Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs will all drop away just as we find our feet. We’ll also beat United fairly convincingly on Sunday.

 

[Jimfv1]

The fluid 442/4231 that MP is implementing will take time for the team to adapt to but it is the way forward as Bayern and Dortmund are showing us.

The past 3 games with Kompany being out has meant that Yaya has generally sat deeper to protect the back 4. v Newcastle both Yaya and Fern were both given license to get forward knowing that Kompany would be able to move out of the back 4 and into a DM position (not role) should the need arise. The last few games has seen the centre-back change each time and as the understanding between them is not perfect Yaya has been asked to patrol the area in front of them (FWIW I think it should have been Garcia and Nasty for all 3 games, Lescott does not suit this defensive system). Once Kompany and Demichelis return we’ll again see the kind of performance we delivered v Newcastle.

I disagree that Yaya is better when played further forward. I always saw this tactic as a last throw of the dice and only worked on the odd occasion v lesser opposition.

United play a traditional 442 using 2 out and out wingers and that, along with a shocking central midfield allowed us to dominate possession and overrun them during Mancini’s tenure. It was a main reason for their failings in Europe too and is why they will fail again. Moyes isn’t a progressive manager and I don’t think it’ll be too long before we see him implement the type of system he had at Everton.

The changes made v Stoke show that w getting out of the CL league is a main priority. What I would have preferred to see though would have been Jovetic on the left playing the Silva role and Nasri playing as the ‘number 10’ being given they type of freedom we saw Aguero have when he came on.

It’s a work in progress and we’re still ticking along. Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs will all drop away just as we find our feet. We’ll also beat United fairly convincingly on Sunday.

Hope you're right !

I agree with most of what you have said and it's a better post than some of the doom and gloom on here. I think Yaya can either play as a marauding attacking midfielder and use his power going forward, or play at centre-back, he hasn't got the drive/discipline (or isn't fit enough) to play as a holding midfielder in the style of De Jong for instance.

I think the Plzen game is as important as the derby, and I'm looking forward to a Newcastle like performance against them, although it won't be easy against a team who are well organised and on top of the Czech league.

 

[FantasyIreland]

Yaya is not a good centrehalf,he's slow on the turn,has minimal agility,he cant jump/head the ball and is a bit of a pussy - not exactly the ingredients for success in that position.

Yes I know he played there some years back on the great stage that is a CL final,however,that was against a Rag team on the back foot and lacking a cutting edge due to the midfield dominance of Barcas incredible midfield and attack.

 

[Jimfv1]

Yaya is not a good centrehalf,he's slow on the turn,has minimal agility,he cant jump/head the ball and is a bit of a pussy - not exactly the ingredients for success in that position.

Yes I know he played there some years back on the great stage that is a CL final,however,that was against a Rag team on the back foot and lacking a cutting edge due to the midfield dominance of Barcas incredible midfield and attack.

Still better than Garcia, and has the height to be able to head the ball out, which he does when defending a few corners, plus he isn't a midfield leader, god knows why he is captain when Kompany's out, and it should stop him ambling back to his defensive midfield duties when an attack breaks down.
I think he just enjoys the glory he receives when scoring goals, which is why he tends to stay forward more than rushing back to help the defence out. I think if he was given the responsibility of bossing the defence and his priority in a game was to stop us conceding goals, his presence at the back if required would be a positive.

He could still take free kicks and go up for corners, but if his focus was clean sheets then he may run back with a bit more purpose, he runs forward quickly enough when a goal-scoring chance is on !

I'm not advocating this is a permanent move, just when required, ie, the last three games, to give Joe Hart and either Lescott or Nastasic some leadership. He played this role for Barca in a few league games before the final and did well in those too, so it wasn't only one game, however Barca have made Mascherano a centre-back too when required so maybe they just have a magic touch when they are short on numbers.

 

[FantasyIreland]

I'm not advocating this is a permanent move, just when required, ie, the last three games, to give Joe Hart and either Lescott or Nastasic some leadership. He played this role for Barca in a few league games before the final and did well in those too, so it wasn't only one game, however Barca have made Mascherano a centre-back too when required so maybe they just have a magic touch when they are short on numbers.

I'm not even sure he would do a better job than Garcia.......Yaya is so rigid he would get turned inside out by pace and mobility.
Yaya has fantastic abilities but i also feel,often,he is disruptive to our play and fluidity given his lack of impetus and drive,i sometimes wonder if its a case of having to fit him in rather than requiring him.

If he is to start he needs to be further forward(as an alternative to Silva) and protected by players who will roll their sleeves up........however,i believe we could play better without his presence as others compliment each other more.

 

[supercity88]

I think given the number of attacking players bought this summer and the defensive problems it will take some time to get the players used to playing together. Stoke away was a tough game, one that we usually struggle in. I think the side that Pellegrini put out was the correct one aside from Jovetic. To pack the midfield with Yaya, Rodwell and Milner and also have Nasri should have enabled us to keep the ball well and stifle Stoke. Navas instead of Jovetic would have been a better outlet away from home and create more space in the midfield with Stoke anticipating the ball over the top for Navas to run onto. The trouble was it didn't work like this, with so many changes the side looked a bit rusty but following the international break and so early into the season that can be expected. I think this time next week we will know a lot more, if the players win away in the champions league and put in a fighting display against the rags then the outlook will be a lot different. In another tough away game I think Pellegrini opted for premier league experience over using the new boys, with Negredo's strength an asset too. I think eventually we will be looking for the fluidity Arsenal show at times when they move the ball and rotate positions. The main issue becomes where to play Aguero! I think Silva or Nasri playing in that advanced role, picking passes wide to Jovetic and Navas with Negredo up front would be better than playing Aguero in that position as Aguero is better with more freedom to drop into space. But he doesn't create as many chances as Silva or Nasri would playing in the same spot.