blueonblue
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 31 Jan 2009
- Messages
- 2,522
"How can a union with 1000's of members be liked to an individual looking after No.1? They were looking after their members."
"How they did that, and the effects on the economy are a point for debate depending if you were a beneficiary of union actions or not."
Replace "Members" with "voters" and that is exactly what you accuse Maggie of, nor is there any comparison between deliberately targeting the vulnerable in order to blackmail whoever into giving you something, and the knock on effect of dragging industry into the real world.
She did act like a true leader by freeing up the majority from the millstone of industries that were dead and dragging the rest down with them, both British steel and the coal industry had such high production costs thanks to high wages and working practices that it pushed up costs for all other industries.
The other part of the equation was the unions, and in those days I was a fully paid up card carrying union member, they had gone from looking after members interests to utter madness that cost jobs and closed businesses for the most ridiculous of reasons, I personally was involved with one company that opened their books to show the union shop steward there simply was not the money to give another pay rise........they didn`t care and called a walk out, 34 people lost jobs because it closed down.
Nor do I ever consider she was divisive, she wanted people to understand that they could make their own opportunities by taking steps to improve what they had to offer rather than whinge while waiting for the state to provide the impossible, this is a far cry from the way you want to portray it, and the answer is in this often misquoted statement
"I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it: 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society."
"There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."
Your example of a successful business is both spot on and an excellent example of what Maggie was doing, the dog eat dog action of the unions was damaging what the the country was trying to achieve, because they were inflating the costs at a level that effected all others without looking at the damage caused.
The fractures were areas built on dead industries, there was no future for coal thanks to the clean air act forcing power stations to switch to the cheaper and cleaner oil and gas, and the clean air act 1968 was forced through by the labour party without a thought to the effect on coalminers jobs, they also shut more pits than Maggie ever did.
Steel was another failing industry thanks to the massive overheads that meant it was a none competitor on the world market, but in spite of the unions being fully aware of this they carried on demanding more money.
Ship building used both steel and power as an example, so if you wanted a ship then anywhere was a far cheaper option, resulting in those companies closing down because of no orders and the area without work, not just the dockyard jobs, but the support jobs from shops to window cleaners because everyone was skint and so not spending.
It takes generations to build up a workforce with the skills needed to attract employers, and many of these same areas are still employment black holes after 13 years of a labour government, so there plainly is no easy answer other than perhaps those words of advice given by Norman Tebbit "On your bike".
Or put another way, you have to move where there is work because this area is not attracting jobs.
"How they did that, and the effects on the economy are a point for debate depending if you were a beneficiary of union actions or not."
Replace "Members" with "voters" and that is exactly what you accuse Maggie of, nor is there any comparison between deliberately targeting the vulnerable in order to blackmail whoever into giving you something, and the knock on effect of dragging industry into the real world.
She did act like a true leader by freeing up the majority from the millstone of industries that were dead and dragging the rest down with them, both British steel and the coal industry had such high production costs thanks to high wages and working practices that it pushed up costs for all other industries.
The other part of the equation was the unions, and in those days I was a fully paid up card carrying union member, they had gone from looking after members interests to utter madness that cost jobs and closed businesses for the most ridiculous of reasons, I personally was involved with one company that opened their books to show the union shop steward there simply was not the money to give another pay rise........they didn`t care and called a walk out, 34 people lost jobs because it closed down.
Nor do I ever consider she was divisive, she wanted people to understand that they could make their own opportunities by taking steps to improve what they had to offer rather than whinge while waiting for the state to provide the impossible, this is a far cry from the way you want to portray it, and the answer is in this often misquoted statement
"I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it: 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society."
"There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."
Your example of a successful business is both spot on and an excellent example of what Maggie was doing, the dog eat dog action of the unions was damaging what the the country was trying to achieve, because they were inflating the costs at a level that effected all others without looking at the damage caused.
The fractures were areas built on dead industries, there was no future for coal thanks to the clean air act forcing power stations to switch to the cheaper and cleaner oil and gas, and the clean air act 1968 was forced through by the labour party without a thought to the effect on coalminers jobs, they also shut more pits than Maggie ever did.
Steel was another failing industry thanks to the massive overheads that meant it was a none competitor on the world market, but in spite of the unions being fully aware of this they carried on demanding more money.
Ship building used both steel and power as an example, so if you wanted a ship then anywhere was a far cheaper option, resulting in those companies closing down because of no orders and the area without work, not just the dockyard jobs, but the support jobs from shops to window cleaners because everyone was skint and so not spending.
It takes generations to build up a workforce with the skills needed to attract employers, and many of these same areas are still employment black holes after 13 years of a labour government, so there plainly is no easy answer other than perhaps those words of advice given by Norman Tebbit "On your bike".
Or put another way, you have to move where there is work because this area is not attracting jobs.