The Boxing thread

[bluemc1]

I don't think there was much wrong with the judges scorecards. If they wanted to fix the fight, they could have scored it a draw regardless of how the last 3 rounds went. Most boxing sources I've looked at, are saying the judging was quite fair overall.

One judge scored it 8-3 Usyk, with one tied round. Another scored it 8-4 Usyk. The British judge scored it 7-5 Usyk. Considering AJ is the home fighter, there isn't much to complain about. It's just the usual twitter conspiracy talk.

I haven't re-watched full the fight yet but I will. I scored it 7-5 Usyk myself on first viewing. I wasn't listening to the commentary much either and I was sober while I watched it. I know some absolute fanatics(long time boxing only sports fans) who scored it the same too, so I know I'm in good company with that. Perhaps there is an element of guessing how the judges might score the closer rounds, given who the champion and home fighter is but equally those who wanted AJ to lose will score the closer rounds to Usyk by default too.

I noticed Roy Jones said similar to me after the fight in one of his interviews. AJ shouldn't have been so passive in the opening stages on the whole, he needed to bank as many of those as he could because Usyk was always going to be the the fresher fighter in the latter stages.

What I have done though is look at how others have scored it. Rounds 2, 4,5,6,8 are rounds that A LOT of people (including some at ringside, professional pundits, current and former fighters and boxing fans), scored for AJ.

Rounds 2 and 4 were swing rounds and I can explain why they were if anyone really wants me to, having watched those back(quite simple really). Most people scored 5,6 and 8 for AJ.

Some sources(Boxingscene) had AJ winning round 9 as well, despite his eye being damaged in that round. That was a big shot that landed in the last 30 seconds of the round but Usyk had took a lot of the round off before it because he was tiring, so there is an argument to be made for AJ there(I didn't score it that way personally). I think the amount of energy Usyk expended in the 7th impacted his output in the following two rounds. He definitely got his second wind though, that's for sure.

not watched back but think I thought the 4th could easily be scored either way and 5th was the first I had AJ taking

 

[Paul1970]

I'm not trying to change your mind on how you scored because having watched some of the rounds again I can see the arguments from both sides. To get a 9-3 you've only given AJ the rounds that you had to though, so it's minimum rather than maximum. After this explanation, if you still can't see what I'm saying we are best off agreeing to disagree though.

I can see why you think it might have been unfair to have it even after the 8th because in all fairness rounds 1 and 3 and 7 were stronger-more dominant than any round AJ had in those first 8 rounds. That's not really relevant though, each round starts with a clean slate. You yourself gave AJ 3 rounds in those rounds(were they 5,6 and 8 out of interest?), giving a score of 5-3 after the 8th, which means you're really arguing over 1 round and there were 2 swing rounds in there, whether you identified them at the time or not.

More people seem to have scored the 2nd round for AJ than they did the 4th between the two swing rounds, from the boxing fan scorecards I've looked at. In the first half of the round, AJ landed the better shots, even though Usyk was displaying the better ringmanship and defence, AJ still got some good shots in((landed to the body and head forcing Usyk on more than one occassion). I actually think Usyk felt those punches(especially the body shots) and the round became a little cagier at the half way point, he started feinting more but really only went on the attack and turned the heat up in the last 40 seconds. To some, the closing stages left a lasting impression and they scored it to Usyk(that's fine) to others AJ was winning more of that round and thought Usyk gave up too much of it without landing enough to get the nod(also fine).

Round 4, is the first round AJ started to make some meaningful adjustments of his own, he was feinting himself, moving better and found success with his own shots. AJ caught Usyk clean in this round, enough to firstly mark up his eye and eventually open up a cut around the eye. Usyk landed the punch of the round(I seem to remember good left hook in the second half of the round) but AJ did more damage to Usyk in this round and finished the round touching him with the jab several times(those still count and he was reacting to them). Roy Jones acknowledged AJ's adjustments and both he and Darren Barker gave the 4th to AJ in commentary.

You don't have to score either of these rounds for AJ yourself but you can't really argue if someone did is my point, because of the above reasons. Along with the fact that, plenty enough people have scored those rounds differently, to show they really were swing rounds.

This is the beauty of boxing because we can both watch the same fight and see things differently like Saturday night for instance . Even though he goes straight for the renatch I thinks it’s a bad idea because to beat usyk he will have to go to war with him which means he will be exposed and run a he risk of being knocked out like he nearly did on Saturday so I think he should take a step back and see what happens after fury and wilder or maybe even try and get dillian whyte in the ring which will be a really good domestic fight but not an easy fight . I have watched usyk since he was an amateur and always knew that he would everything he went for so I was happy he won . Good post by the way mate .

 

[Metalartin]

This is the beauty of boxing because we can both watch the same fight and see things differently like Saturday night for instance . Even though he goes straight for the renatch I thinks it’s a bad idea because to beat usyk he will have to go to war with him which means he will be exposed and run a he risk of being knocked out like he nearly did on Saturday so I think he should take a step back and see what happens after fury and wilder or maybe even try and get dillian whyte in the ring which will be a really good domestic fight but not an easy fight . I have watched usyk since he was an amateur and always knew that he would everything he went for so I was happy he won . Good post by the way mate .

Yeah, I remember us having the Usyk discussion around the time he moved up in weight to be fair.

 

[Marlo]

I've seen Hearn talking about it which is weird, he might just get away with Fury/Joshua if AJ knocks out a gatekeeper or two but if Usyk does a job on him again in a rematch then it really is dead and buried.

Think he might try to go after Wilder if he loses to Fury. Let Usyk and Fury fight it out then take on the winner.

The big wild card in this is Fury, talented boxer but you do wonder how much he is actually arsed about it and whether he actually wants to fight anyone

 

[leighton]

Do

you not think Fury could use his size much more effectively than Joshua to take a points win?

He could do but i just think Usyk is a level above all in this division. His movement is way more better than the movement of Fury. Fury will tire out trying to get a hold of him. You cant be going in there weighing 19 stone as Usyk wont be that heavy and its speed and mobility that will win Usyk the fight. Fury isnt a puncher no stand out KO power where 1 punch will do his damage in any of the fights.

 

[Manchester1894]

Happy for Usyk, but not a fan of boxers moving up. Seen a few boxers get a win at a much bigger weight and look absolutely dejected afterwards. Usyk's body language was although the boxing from him was good and avoided danger, the standard shots were much much heavier and I think he might have even been a bit subdued due to the wear and tear a fight brings.

 

[Gundog’s Gundog]

Really looking forward to the Liam Smith v Fowler fight next week, I love a good domestic clash. Liam’s undoubtedly past his peak but should still have comfortably enough to deal with this gobshite. Decent undercard too with Ted Cheeseman featuring. Never in a bad fight that lad.

 

[LongsightM13]

2016 Rio Olympics boxing bouts confirmed as having been ‘manipulated’ ie ‘bent as fuck’. Seems those involving Russian fighters were especially vulnerable to systemic cheating.
The Michael Conlon decision was particularly egregious, he won it by a country mile.


Rio Olympics: System to manipulate outcome of boxing matches by officials in place at 2016 Games
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/boxing/58747880

 

[Man_City_Loyal]

Cannot believe the judges had it a draw going into the ninth round which shows you that it was going to be an Eddie Hearn special.

Tin foil hats at the ready

 

[bluemc1]

Happy for Usyk, but not a fan of boxers moving up. Seen a few boxers get a win at a much bigger weight and look absolutely dejected afterwards. Usyk's body language was although the boxing from him was good and avoided danger, the standard shots were much much heavier and I think he might have even been a bit subdued due to the wear and tear a fight brings.

Yeah he did look really spent and tired afterwards, I think the 100% concentration he maintained throughout the 12 rounds would also have added to this

 

[LongsightM13]

2016 Rio Olympics boxing bouts confirmed as having been ‘manipulated’ ie ‘bent as fuck’. Seems those involving Russian fighters were especially vulnerable to systemic cheating.
The Michael Conlon decision was particularly egregious, he won it by a country mile.


Rio Olympics: System to manipulate outcome of boxing matches by officials in place at 2016 Games
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/boxing/58747880

Now updated with more detail and quotes from Conlan


Rio Olympics: System to manipulate outcome of boxing matches by officials in place at 2016 Games
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/boxing/58747880

 

[Metalartin]

Now updated with more detail and quotes from Conlan


Rio Olympics: System to manipulate outcome of boxing matches by officials in place at 2016 Games
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/boxing/58747880

Joyce vs Yoka in question too. I'll need to watch some of those fights again.

https://www.espn.com/olympics/story...xing-drops-head-guards-changes-scoring-system
2016 was where they changed the scoring system for Olympic boxing too. Rather than punches landed, they changed it to the 10 point scoring system and removed the headgaurds, to bring it closer to the pros. Probably because most people were scoring it that way at home anyway, then complaining about the results, whether it was the wrong decision or not. Seems like they used the switch and any confusion it may have brought, as an opportunity to fix the results.

https://www.liveabout.com/boxing-olympic-rules-judging-and-officials-424010

Each judge must award 10 points to the boxer they judge to have won the round within 15 seconds of the end of the round. The judging criteria are the number of target-area blows landed, domination of the bout, technique and tactical superiority, competitiveness, and infringement of the rules.

 

[LongsightM13]

Joyce vs Yoka in question too. I'll need to watch some of those fights again.

https://www.espn.com/olympics/story...xing-drops-head-guards-changes-scoring-system
2016 was where they changed the scoring system for Olympic boxing too. Rather than punches landed, they changed it to the 10 point scoring system and removed the headgaurds, to bring it closer to the pros. Probably because most people were scoring it that way at home anyway, then complaining about the results, whether it was the wrong decision or not. Seems like they used the switch and any confusion it may have brought, as an opportunity to fix the results.

https://www.liveabout.com/boxing-olympic-rules-judging-and-officials-424010

I dont seem to remember the Joyce decision being that controversial at the time tbh, a lot of people here thought he won but I seem to recall it was a lot closer than say the Conlan fight which really was an absolute disgrace, the most blatant robbery since Roy Jones Jr ‘lost’ to the Korean in Seoul 1988

 

[Deleted member 77198]

Re-watching the fight now. At times it almost looks like a mismatch tbh. Usyk is way to smart a boxer for AJ, he looks devoid of ideas to counter Usyk's movement, can't stop him coming in and out. Joshua looks worried.

In my humble opinion Fury has the size, power advantage and ring craft of Usyk, Fury v Joshua would be pointless tbh, there would only be one winner. Fury v Usyk is the fight now as long as Fury beats Wilder again. Joshua v Wilder should happen imo.

Yeah agree with all of that mate.

 

[jay_mcfc]

I watched the fight on DAZN with Spanish commentary. After two rounds I thought Joshua was doing all right - won the second and might have nicked the first although on replay I gave it to Usyk. Looked on Twitter and everyone was saying he was getting destroyed?!

After 6 rounds it was 3-3 and after 8 it was 4-4. I thought after round 2 the fight was really easy to score.

There’s the obvious overreaction to an AJ loss but he can beat Usyk. Considering how few times he caught him Usyk’s face was a mess and he was really hurt by every body shot. AJ’s issue is durability. I don’t think he was fighting scared or he even thought he could out box him I just think the whole night was about not gassing because he knew as soon as he was gassed Usyk would annihilate him. The lack of commitment in his punches was a real concern. The only way he can win the rematch is with a much higher output, more grappling, stiffer jabs and attacking the body. That can only be done by making it a 6 round fight and accepting if he can’t get him out he’ll either have to quit or get sparked out himself.

 

[daztrueblue91]

I watched the fight on DAZN with Spanish commentary. After two rounds I thought Joshua was doing all right - won the second and might have nicked the first although on replay I gave it to Usyk. Looked on Twitter and everyone was saying he was getting destroyed?!

After 6 rounds it was 3-3 and after 8 it was 4-4. I thought after round 2 the fight was really easy to score.

There’s the obvious overreaction to an AJ loss but he can beat Usyk. Considering how few times he caught him Usyk’s face was a mess and he was really hurt by every body shot. AJ’s issue is durability. I don’t think he was fighting scared or he even thought he could out box him I just think the whole night was about not gassing because he knew as soon as he was gassed Usyk would annihilate him. The lack of commitment in his punches was a real concern. The only way he can win the rematch is with a much higher output, more grappling, stiffer jabs and attacking the body. That can only be done by making it a 6 round fight and accepting if he can’t get him out he’ll either have to quit or get sparked out himself.

He doesn’t deserve a rematch and the fact he will get one is the epitome of why boxing has become a joke of a sport. It’s more of a popularity contest that sporting contest.

Twice in world title fights Joshua has been well beaten, and twice he will get an immediate rematch. It’s the same with Wilder and Fury. The first fight was close enough to warrant the rematch. But Fury utterly destroyed Wilder in the second match. There is zero need for the trilogy.

There was a time where champions who lost their belt had to work their way back to the top. Now it’s a money making scam which holds up the division due to undeserved rematches.

How many top ranked opponents has Dillion White fought whilst being the number 1 contender? He’s still waiting for his title shot whilst Wilder and Joshua seem to stay at the top despite being well beaten in title fights.

 

[jay_mcfc]

He doesn’t deserve a rematch and the fact he will get one is the epitome of why boxing has become a joke of a sport. It’s more of a popularity contest that sporting contest.

Twice in world title fights Joshua has been well beaten, and twice he will get an immediate rematch. It’s the same with Wilder and Fury. The first fight was close enough to warrant the rematch. But Fury utterly destroyed Wilder in the second match. There is zero need for the trilogy.

There was a time where champions who lost their belt had to work their way back to the top. Now it’s a money making scam which holds up the division due to undeserved rematches.

How many top ranked opponents has Dillion White fought whilst being the number 1 contender? He’s still waiting for his title shot whilst Wilder and Joshua seem to stay at the top despite being well beaten in title fights.

Absolutely fair there was a rematch clause against Ruiz who was given a shot out of the blue. As mandatory, the Usyk one is slightly different. There is an arguement to be made that rematch clauses shouldn't be in mandatory challenges but did you not hear what the Usyk management said? THEY wanted the rematch clause because they know a fight v Joshua with a 70/30 split in their favour is mega bucks.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

He doesn’t deserve a rematch and the fact he will get one is the epitome of why boxing has become a joke of a sport. It’s more of a popularity contest that sporting contest.

Twice in world title fights Joshua has been well beaten, and twice he will get an immediate rematch. It’s the same with Wilder and Fury. The first fight was close enough to warrant the rematch. But Fury utterly destroyed Wilder in the second match. There is zero need for the trilogy.

There was a time where champions who lost their belt had to work their way back to the top. Now it’s a money making scam which holds up the division due to undeserved rematches.

How many top ranked opponents has Dillion White fought whilst being the number 1 contender? He’s still waiting for his title shot whilst Wilder and Joshua seem to stay at the top despite being well beaten in title fights.

Beaten champions should always get a rematch. Perk earned from winning the belt in the first place.

 

[Metalartin]

I watched the fight on DAZN with Spanish commentary. After two rounds I thought Joshua was doing all right - won the second and might have nicked the first although on replay I gave it to Usyk. Looked on Twitter and everyone was saying he was getting destroyed?!

After 6 rounds it was 3-3 and after 8 it was 4-4. I thought after round 2 the fight was really easy to score.

There’s the obvious overreaction to an AJ loss but he can beat Usyk. Considering how few times he caught him Usyk’s face was a mess and he was really hurt by every body shot. AJ’s issue is durability. I don’t think he was fighting scared or he even thought he could out box him I just think the whole night was about not gassing because he knew as soon as he was gassed Usyk would annihilate him. The lack of commitment in his punches was a real concern. The only way he can win the rematch is with a much higher output, more grappling, stiffer jabs and attacking the body. That can only be done by making it a 6 round fight and accepting if he can’t get him out he’ll either have to quit or get sparked out himself.

Not too sure about the first round personally, 2 and 4 were the rounds people didn't give AJ enough credit in IMO.

AJ wasn't dominated in the first round, at least not as much as he was in some of the others but I still think it was an Usyk round. Usyk was fast out of the traps and set such a high tempo, that I don't see any other HWs keeping up with him. They probably wouldn't have even attempted to keep up. So to be fair to AJ, he didn't start slow at all. DAZN said it looked like two Light Heavyweights in the opening stages and it takes two for that.

In the second round, DAZN definitely seemed more interested in eulogising about Usyk's skills and the pace he set in the 1st round, than they were calling what was currently happening in the 2nd round. Sky were doing the same thing. They failed to call most of the action in the first half of that round as a result and there were less punches thrown/landed in the second half of the round(lots of feinting and pawing).

I think AJ should have used his size to rough him up and break his rhythm up as much as possible, by any means necessary, in the opening rounds. Rather than try and keep up with him and being concerned with making it look pretty(just don't let him work and bank the round if he could). Breaking up his rhythm should have been one of his key objectives, then he could have made those same adjustments he did in the 4th round onwards, to pick up the rounds he did. I thought one of Usyk's objectives was taking away AJ's right hand, which he did well for most of the fight by not letting him set up that punch with his lead hand. Since he has power in both hands he could try and catch him out by going straight for a big left hand or a big right hand without the setup, it would probably get less pleasing on the eye that way and he could get countered but he has to try something different.

You'd have to heavily favour Usyk going into the rematch though. Which will happen IMO, if AJ doesn't trigger the rematch clause while he has the chance, then there's no saying Usyk will fight AJ again. It's immediate or it's void.

 

[daztrueblue91]

Beaten champions should always get a rematch. Perk earned from winning the belt in the first place.

Where does it end? If Joshua beats Usyk in the rematch do they have a third fight? If Usyk wins that do they have a fourth?

If a champion is beat in a close fight then fair enough.

But if he’s completely outboxed/outfought or knocked out then they should fight their way back to the top IMO.

That doesn’t mean someone like AJ should start fighting bums. A fight and victory against a top 5 ranked fighter should put him firmly back in title contention.