The Conservative Party

[Prestwich_Blue]

How long has she got before the knife goes in? Can't believe she's lasted this long tbh.

First vote could potentially be this week.

 

[tshirtman]

Newsnight are reporting that the 48 letters have been reached, a vote of no confidence will be going in around lunchtime tomorrow.

 

[aguero93:20]

How long has she got before the knife goes in? Can't believe she's lasted this long tbh.

Looks like the knife may have gone in today in the form of the 48 letters. Whether that sees her out of Downing Street or safe from challenge for a year is yet to be seen though.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I think it's largely to do with the way the parties, and thereby parliaments, have become command-and-control organisations where you have to be "on-message. It's rare these days to see a free-thinker get into a position of power. And when I was younger you had politicians who had genuine conviction and believed in something, unlike people like the Milibands, May and Cameron. At least, despite his many, many faults, Corbyn actually believes in something.

Can you look at the government front bench and think of any of them "Yes, they're politicians of real and genuine conviction?"

But all that’s because of our political system (imo). It stifles individuality and creative thought and promotes the mundane and the anodyne.

 

[CityStu]

I like the idea of PR within regions. For example, at the 2017 election Labour received 55% of the votes in the North West, which would correspond to 41 of the 75 North West MPs. Using smaller, but still substantial regions (potentially urban and rural as well) would swing more MPs to larger parties.

 

[aguero93:20]

But all that’s because of our political system (imo). It stifles individuality and creative thought and promotes the mundane and the anodyne.

Agree, with two parties that are so dominant, nobody gets anywhere without toeing the party line and the line itself changes with the speed of a glacier. A more fluid and varied system gives rise to more voices and allows new ideas to come through.

 

[George Hannah]

Newsnight are reporting that the 48 letters have been reached, a vote of no confidence will be going in around lunchtime tomorrow.

Sky have got Newton Dunne claiming categorically it's not true yet. He has friends who are friends of Graham Brady and he's told them nothing.

 

[George Hannah]

I like the idea of PR within regions. For example, at the 2017 election Labour received 55% of the votes in the North West, which would correspond to 41 of the 75 North West MPs. Using smaller, but still substantial regions (potentially urban and rural as well) would swing more MPs to larger parties.

Regional government is a prelude to EU government btw.

 

[CityStu]

Regional government is a prelude to EU government btw.

Not a regional government - just a regional way of proportionally selecting MPs to sit in a national government.

 

[aguero93:20]

I like the idea of PR within regions. For example, at the 2017 election Labour received 55% of the votes in the North West, which would correspond to 41 of the 75 North West MPs. Using smaller, but still substantial regions (potentially urban and rural as well) would swing more MPs to larger parties.

That's how PR works here mate, we have county based constituencies (with a few exemptions based on population ie Dublin and Cork have multiple constituencies and Roscommon/Laois share a constituency) so for example Louth has 130k people and gets 5 seats, if the turnout is 60k then each politician to get 12k is elected, the candidate with the least votes is eliminated and their votes are transferred in preference order until all seats are filled with the last seat being done on most votes when 2 candidates are left.

 

[George Hannah]

Not a regional government - just a regional way of proportionally selecting MPs to sit in a national government.

It's the way our Euro MPs are currently elected via PR.

 

[robbieh]

I think it's largely to do with the way the parties, and thereby parliaments, have become command-and-control organisations where you have to be "on-message. It's rare these days to see a free-thinker get into a position of power. And when I was younger you had politicians who had genuine conviction and believed in something, unlike people like the Milibands, May and Cameron. At least, despite his many, many faults, Corbyn actually believes in something.

Can you look at the government front bench and think of any of them "Yes, they're politicians of real and genuine conviction?"

That's a good point. Probably unlike your good self I have liked Corbyn from way back. As you say he has beliefs. I suppose you could say that Rees Mogg and his ilk believe in something. Johnson no.

 

[CityStu]

That's how PR works here mate, we have county based constituencies (with a few exemptions based on population ie Dublin and Cork have multiple constituencies and Roscommon/Laois share a constituency) so for example Louth has 130k people and gets 5 seats, if the turnout is 60k then each politician to get 12k is elected, the candidate with the least votes is eliminated and their votes are transferred in preference order until all seats are filled with the last seat being done on most votes when 2 candidates are left.

I've run this on the 2017 UK general election votes because I do data quite well. Although obviously people may have voted differently (or actually voted) in a PR system, we'd have the following MP numbers:

Labour - 263
Conservative - 271
Plaid - 4
UKIP - 12
Lib Dem - 48
SNP - 22
Independent - 1
Green - 11
DUP - 7
Alliance - 2
UUP - 2
Sinn Fein - 5
SDLP - 2

 

[robbieh]

I've run this on the 2017 UK general election votes because I do data quite well. Although obviously people may have voted differently (or actually voted) in a PR system, we'd have the following MP numbers:

Labour - 263
Conservative - 271
Plaid - 4
UKIP - 12
Lib Dem - 48
SNP - 22
Independent - 1
Green - 11
DUP - 7
Alliance - 2
UUP - 2
Sinn Fein - 5
SDLP - 2

In which case May and hard brexit, indeed brexit of any type, would be toast

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Well, first past the post has kept the extreme right contained, unlike most of Europe.

Do you believe our current electoral system could properly be described as fully democratic.

 

[aguero93:20]

I've run this on the 2017 UK general election votes because I do data quite well. Although obviously people may have voted differently (or actually voted) in a PR system, we'd have the following MP numbers:

Labour - 263
Conservative - 271
Plaid - 4
UKIP - 12
Lib Dem - 48
SNP - 22
Independent - 1
Green - 11
DUP - 7
Alliance - 2
UUP - 2
Sinn Fein - 5
SDLP - 2

Straight away the smaller parties have better representation bar the SNP who lose a lot of their quirky geographical advantage and both main parties are forced to listen to new voices if they want to form a government.

For me the most important thing is, taking Louth again as an example, run that county as 5 FPTP constituencies and (taking what appear to be the obvious districts) Fine Gael take 4 seats with 40% of the vote with Sinn Fein taking the fifth with around 25% leaving 35% disenfranchised. With PR, Fine Gael get 2, Labour (20%) and Sinn Fein get 1 each and the last seat is between an independent (who currently holds it), Labour, Sinn Fein and Fianna Fail coming down to second and third preference votes. Everyone in the county knows that their vote counted.

 

[George Hannah]

Do you believe our current electoral system could properly be described as fully democratic.

I'm not sure a fully democratic system of government is possible.

 

[George Hannah]

Straight away the smaller parties have better representation bar the SNP who lose a lot of their quirky geographical advantage and both main parties are forced to listen to new voices if they want to form a government.

For me the most important thing is, taking Louth again as an example, run that county as 5 FPTP constituencies and (taking what appear to be the obvious districts) Fine Gael take 4 seats with 40% of the vote with Sinn Fein taking the fifth with around 25% leaving 35% disenfranchised. With PR, Fine Gael get 2, Labour (20%) and Sinn Fein get 1 each and the last seat is between an independent (who currently holds it), Labour, Sinn Fein and Fianna Fail coming down to second and third preference votes. Everyone in the county knows that their vote counted.

The consequences of the last Tory/Lib coalition would not be seen as a good advertisement for a government listening to new voices.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I'm not sure a fully democratic system of government is possible.

That’s an honest response, but doesn’t that somewhat undermine your inimical stance to the EU?

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

The consequences of the last Tory/Lib coalition would not be seen as a good advertisement for a government listening to new voices.

It was a stable government, despite confident predictions from nay-sayers that it would be anything but.