The Conservative Party

[Octavian]

You can legitimately ask the question why our death rate, as an island nation, was much worse than every other island nation in the world. Nearly double the next island nation that has a significant population size. It wasn’t just bad luck or population density. If the government had learned the lessons from Italy, with some quite obvious decisions we could have avoided a lot of deaths. That’s not just hindsight, many were saying it at the time because it was so obvious.

Johnson’s idiocy definitely did contribute to the deaths going up but saying 100,000 deaths directly because of him is unreasonable without actually knowing so.

We are one of the most visited places on Earth and have an incredibly dense population.

Which island nations would you compare us to?

 

[Octavian]

I don’t think it’s ever been proven that Blair knowingly lied. There’s no doubt the dossier was based on a lie and the people who signed it off were complicit in it but does that automatically make Blair culpable. Whilst the Chilcott report was damning the key part related to the dodgy dossier was described as follows:
“The report cleared the Prime Minister's Office of influencing the Iraq Dossier (the "Dodgy Dossier"), which contained the claim that Iraq possessed the ability to launch WMD within 45 minutes, and instead laid the blame for the weaknesses in its evidence on the Joint Intelligence Committee.”

Chilcott himself said the reports didn’t provide certainty.

“when intelligence reports had not established "beyond doubt" that they existed, the long awaited Chilcot report has damningly concluded.

The Prime Minister was so convinced that of the presence of the non-existent WMDs that he sent British troops into Iraq when diplomacy might still have resolved the crisis. But the secret intelligence reports he had been shown "did not justify" his certainty, Sir John Chilcot concluded.”

Source Independent.

At best he went on a whim, at worst he knew.

Hundreds of thousands dead, people homeless, traumatised, ISIS and the deaths and carnage they have caused. The reputation damage to NATO, British soldiers traumatised, Iraq’s economy shot to shit. A refugee crisis. All on a whim or a lie.

Chilcott gave him the benefit of doubt of delusion, the whole thing was the biggest farce in decades.

 

[west didsblue]

Johnson’s idiocy definitely did contribute to the deaths going up but saying 100,000 deaths directly because of him is unreasonable without actually knowing so.

We are one of the most visited places on Earth and have an incredibly dense population.

Which island nations would you compare us to?

Japan, Taiwan, Philippines, Ireland, Indonesia.

 

[west didsblue]

Chilcott himself said the reports didn’t provide certainty.

“when intelligence reports had not established "beyond doubt" that they existed, the long awaited Chilcot report has damningly concluded.

The Prime Minister was so convinced that of the presence of the non-existent WMDs that he sent British troops into Iraq when diplomacy might still have resolved the crisis. But the secret intelligence reports he had been shown "did not justify" his certainty, Sir John Chilcot concluded.”

Source Independent.

At best he went on a whim, at worst he knew.

Hundreds of thousands dead, people homeless, traumatised, ISIS and the deaths and carnage they have caused. The reputation damage to NATO, British soldiers traumatised, Iraq’s economy shot to shit. A refugee crisis. All on a whim or a lie.

Chilcott gave him the benefit of doubt of delusion, the whole thing was the biggest farce in decades.

I didn't say it exonerated him of responsibility. I said there was no proof he lied.

Whatever Blair would have or wouldn't have done would not have changed the consequences of that war because Bush was doing it anyway.

Your verdict on the Chilcott report is just your opinion. It was, in fact, very damning of Blair.

 

[Octavian]

Japan, Taiwan, Philippines, Ireland, Indonesia.

Well Taiwan knew before anyone what was going on and they closed themselves off from China.

The only culturally similar country that hasn’t had to deal with pandemics of serious nature recently, on your list, is Ireland and look at their population density and mass compared to England.

The UK has several of the busiest airports in the world and London ranks higher for visitors than any city from your list.

We’d have been fucked no matter what Johnson did but I agree he made it worse, by how much, who knows yet.

 

[Octavian]

I didn't say it exonerated him of responsibility. I said there was no proof he lied.

Whatever Blair would have or wouldn't have done would not have changed the consequences of that war because Bush was doing it anyway.

Your verdict on the Chilcott report is just your opinion. It was, in fact, very damning of Blair.

My verdict on the Chilcott report was that it was an utter disaster and that’s the opinion of my nephew who served too.

Chilcott would also agree it seems.

Whether the US would have fucked the place without us is likely but we still went in balls deep and Blair has caused more damage internationally than any PM in living memory.

 

[Phil1]

Blair undoubtedly fucked up regards Iraq but I believe he made the decisions he did with the right intentions at that moment in time. Hindsight hasn't been kind to him though and he will have to accept his reputation has been tainted forever.

This **** in charge now though..
I believe he's the worst PM in living history who is more in love with the idea of being PM than actually being PM.
He has no underlying qualities to speak of and has made a fool out of himself and the country he represents so often its hard to keep up.
The fact there are still folk willing to defend him and vote for him leaves a pretty sour taste but I doubt he or his party will be going anywhere for a while.

 

[west didsblue]

Well Taiwan knew before anyone what was going on and they closed themselves off from China.

The only culturally similar country that hasn’t had to deal with pandemics of serious nature recently, on your list, is Ireland and look at their population density and mass compared to England.

The UK has several of the busiest airports in the world and London ranks higher for visitors than any city from your list.

We’d have been fucked no matter what Johnson did but I agree he made it worse, by how much, who knows yet.

Ireland comes second, presumably because part of the UK is on it.

The others all are single islands or include islands with greater population densities than the UK, and the virus doesn't give a fuck about culture. Tokyo is as busy as London, and Japan as a whole has airports as busy as UK ones. Tokyo may not have as many international visitors as London but it's hardly a backwater, and the reason we had so many international visitors with Covid is down to our government doing too little too late to slow the influx. Even a year later when no one could argue that we couldn't have known any better, we let thousands of Indians in with the delta variant because Johnson wanted a trade deal. You can't say that the countries with more historic experience of pandemics knew how to handle it better than us a year later. Johnson is complicit in every fuck up made by this government in the handling of the pandemic and there are fucking loads of them.

 

[Octavian]

Ireland comes second, presumably because part of the UK is on it.

The others all are single islands or include islands with greater population densities than the UK, and the virus doesn't give a fuck about culture. Tokyo is as busy as London, and Japan as a whole has airports as busy as UK ones. Tokyo may not have as many international visitors as London but it's hardly a backwater, and the reason we had so many international visitors with Covid is down to our government doing too little too late to slow the influx. Even a year later when no one could argue that we couldn't have known any better, we let thousands of Indians in with the delta variant because Johnson wanted a trade deal. You can't say that the countries with more historic experience of pandemics knew how to handle it better than us a year later. Johnson is complicit in every fuck up made by this government in the handling of the pandemic and there are fucking loads of them.

Well each home nation has been managed by different governments, with England being managed by Johnson.

England has a higher population density than all of those and London is busier than Tokyo by a significant amount, with visitors. Although I agree Tokyo is not a backwater.

All of those places have experienced other pandemics of this nature before in modern times, we haven’t for decades, not since mass travel like we see today.

No surprise they were better equipped.

But out of all the places mentioned, Johnson had the hardest task.

That doesn’t mean he’s not fucked it up.

 

[tshirtman]

Johnson’s idiocy definitely did contribute to the deaths going up but saying 100,000 deaths directly because of him is unreasonable without actually knowing so.

We are one of the most visited places on Earth and have an incredibly dense population.

Which island nations would you compare us to?

you also conveniently forget the thousands that have died due to benefit sanctions

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[west didsblue]

Well each home nation has been managed by different governments, with England being managed by Johnson.

England has a higher population density than all of those and London is busier than Tokyo by a significant amount, with visitors. Although I agree Tokyo is not a backwater.

All of those places have experienced other pandemics of this nature before in modern times, we haven’t for decades, not since mass travel like we see today.

No surprise they were better equipped.

But out of all the places mentioned, Johnson had the hardest task.

That doesn’t mean he’s not fucked it up.

England doesn’t have a higher population density than Java, Honshu and Luzon which are the most populous islands of Indonesia, Japan and Philippines and is lower than Taiwan too, so population density is not a discriminator. Johnson had exactly the same task with exactly the same warning as the leaders of those countries. It wasn’t easy but he wasn’t up to the job and although you’re admitting he could have done better, he actually couldn’t have done much worse.

 

[Octavian]

you also conveniently forget the thousands that have died due to benefit sanctions

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I’ve not “conveniently” forgotten anything.

Whenever claims like that are made it’s good to check an independent fact checker - https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-did-austerity-kill-120000-people

I’ve no doubt poor souls will have died due to cuts but the debate is whether the Iraq War was more damaging to human life, I think it’s beyond question it was.

 

[Octavian]

England doesn’t have a higher population density than Java, Honshu and Luzon which are the most populous islands of Indonesia, Japan and Philippines and is lower than Taiwan too, so population density is not a discriminator. Johnson had exactly the same task with exactly the same warning as the leaders of those countries. It wasn’t easy but he wasn’t up to the job and although you’re admitting he could have done better, he actually couldn’t have done much worse.

England is a single country that Johnson had total responsibility for, that’s comparable to those whole countries you’ve mentioned.

Couldn’t have done worse? He obviously could.

Number 1 he might not have taken the gamble on the vaccines, which has apparently saved 30,000 lives according to a new report.

He could have stayed open in November last year or January this year or done a Sweden and their experiment.

That would have been far worse.

He could have done far better and there needs to be a proper enquiry but to say he couldn’t have done worse and that he’s responsible for the majority of deaths is unrealistic.

The countries you’ve mentioned all have had pandemics more recently and therefore have all performed better than western nations.

 

[tshirtman]

I’ve not “conveniently” forgotten anything.

Whenever claims like that are made it’s good to check an independent fact checker - https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-did-austerity-kill-120000-people

I’ve no doubt poor souls will have died due to cuts but the debate is whether the Iraq War was more damaging to human life, I think it’s beyond question it was.

All that link says, there's no proof to support the claim, it's one academics word against another academic.
An inquiry would find out the truth, but the Torys won't allow one, why is that?
Also I presume your OK with Patel possibly causing unnecessary deaths in UK waters.

 

[Octavian]

All that link says, there's no proof to support the claim, it's one academics word against another academic.
An inquiry would find out the truth, but the Torys won't allow one, why is that?
Also I presume your OK with Patel possibly causing unnecessary deaths in UK waters.

Why are you presuming things you don’t have a clue about?

That’s on both accounts.

 

[tshirtman]

Why are you presuming things you don’t have a clue about?

That’s on both accounts.

You don't know what I do for a living do you

 

[Phil1]

You don't know what I do for a living do you

So you don't sell tshirt? :-)

 

[Octavian]

You don't know what I do for a living do you

 

[tshirtman]

View attachment 26048

I'm a Psychiatrist, last year I attended 4 inquests of people who took there own lives,
3 of whom informed me that there mental health plummeted due to benefit cuts.
so fuck you, you arrogant prick

 

[Gray]

Might have nothing to do with terrorism, but Afghani refugee arrested in Manchester today.