hgblue said:It was Van Persie's goals that won the title for United last season, and I have a sneaking feeling that it will be Rooney's that win the title for Chelsea this season. You can tell me how wonderful this new 'holistic' approach is at the end of the season when the title's in the bag. Until then, I'm a sceptic I'm afraid.
johnmc said:hgblue said:It was Van Persie's goals that won the title for United last season, and I have a sneaking feeling that it will be Rooney's that win the title for Chelsea this season. You can tell me how wonderful this new 'holistic' approach is at the end of the season when the title's in the bag. Until then, I'm a sceptic I'm afraid.
As much as it is always said, RVP goals did not win them the league, the team won the league same as it is every season.
RVP scored more goals for arsenal the previous year so if it really was purely down to his goals why didnt arsenal win the league in 2011-12. Fact is the rags were better in most departments, and even when they werent they found a way to win where we lost and drew.
meeesh said:fact is RVP was their out and out best player,and without him they would never have finished top
All teams are greater than the sum of their parts.pee dubya said:Player for player they are nowhere near the best team in the league, they won it because as a team they are greater than the sum of their parts. Rather than disproving the holistic approach (how i'm growing to hate that term), unfortunately United prove it's worth.blueparrot said:Dzeko's Right Boot said:What was the alternative?
Van Persie did not win the league for them they got the same points and I think 3 less goals as the season before. They won it more from our lack of goals last season.
No they're not.Caveman said:All teams are greater than the sum of their parts.pee dubya said:Player for player they are nowhere near the best team in the league, they won it because as a team they are greater than the sum of their parts. Rather than disproving the holistic approach (how i'm growing to hate that term), unfortunately United prove it's worth.blueparrot said:Van Persie did not win the league for them they got the same points and I think 3 less goals as the season before. They won it more from our lack of goals last season.
johnmc said:meeesh said:fact is RVP was their out and out best player,and without him they would never have finished top
How are you sure of this? Considering you are calling it a Fact.
BillyShears said:hgblue said:BillyShears said:Crucially, I don't think last season was a fair reflection of the talent and quality in the squad. For many reasons we had a squad which under performed both collectively and individually. This summer the squad has been balanced in a fashion which we desperately needed. Right now it's arguably the best in the league.
Just my opinion, but at the level we're at, the players other people buy isn't what's important. It's how our teams progress, evolve, and ultimately deliver. I know you're sceptical about the way the club's being run but all I can say is give it a year. This is just the beginning.
I agree that the team under-performed last season, and I agree with you about the reason that happened. This season, we won't have that excuse/reason so we should be able to gauge the ultimate holistic manager (Pellegrini) up against the ultimate non-holistic manager (Mourinho), and our much praised holistic transfer policy against their much criticised non-holistic transfer policy. If we come out on top, not only can you rest assured that I'll be absolutely delighted, I'll also be on here eating my words, but my instinct tells me Chelsea will win the League. Hope I'm wrong.
Chelsea have signed Schurle and Van Ginkel this summer. Their approach is even more holistic than ours! :) The Rooney transfer is a pipe dream of epic proportions in my opinion. United won't sell to Chelsea and Chelsea know it. Chelsea for their part also passed up on Cavani and Falcao.
The clubs threatening the non holistic approach this summer are United and Arsenal. I'm fairly comfortable that neither of them will get their a list targets (Fabregas, Suarez). Looks like Bale's going to Madrid. All in all the notion that Chelsea are favourites can only be predicated on the return of Mourinho. I admit it'll be quite an interesting battle between him and Pellegrini. However our squad is stronger than theirs in three crucial areas, central defence, central midfield, and forwards.
BillyShears said:Pigeonho said:I like that part there.
I think it's an accurate description of how Pellegrini, Txiki, and Ferran will run the club. No matter how much we've enjoyed the last few years, I believe that what comes next really will be the building of a footballing empire.
hgblue said:BillyShears said:hgblue said:I agree that the team under-performed last season, and I agree with you about the reason that happened. This season, we won't have that excuse/reason so we should be able to gauge the ultimate holistic manager (Pellegrini) up against the ultimate non-holistic manager (Mourinho), and our much praised holistic transfer policy against their much criticised non-holistic transfer policy. If we come out on top, not only can you rest assured that I'll be absolutely delighted, I'll also be on here eating my words, but my instinct tells me Chelsea will win the League. Hope I'm wrong.
Chelsea have signed Schurle and Van Ginkel this summer. Their approach is even more holistic than ours! :) The Rooney transfer is a pipe dream of epic proportions in my opinion. United won't sell to Chelsea and Chelsea know it. Chelsea for their part also passed up on Cavani and Falcao.
The clubs threatening the non holistic approach this summer are United and Arsenal. I'm fairly comfortable that neither of them will get their a list targets (Fabregas, Suarez). Looks like Bale's going to Madrid. All in all the notion that Chelsea are favourites can only be predicated on the return of Mourinho. I admit it'll be quite an interesting battle between him and Pellegrini. However our squad is stronger than theirs in three crucial areas, central defence, central midfield, and forwards.
Arsenal have been the model of an holistic approach, one manager, no 'star' signings, kids coming through the youth set-up, and they've won bugger all. Chelsea have been the model of a non-holistic approach, lots of managers, plenty of 'star' signings, no kids coming through, and have won plenty.
hgblue said:BillyShears said:hgblue said:I agree that the team under-performed last season, and I agree with you about the reason that happened. This season, we won't have that excuse/reason so we should be able to gauge the ultimate holistic manager (Pellegrini) up against the ultimate non-holistic manager (Mourinho), and our much praised holistic transfer policy against their much criticised non-holistic transfer policy. If we come out on top, not only can you rest assured that I'll be absolutely delighted, I'll also be on here eating my words, but my instinct tells me Chelsea will win the League. Hope I'm wrong.
Chelsea have signed Schurle and Van Ginkel this summer. Their approach is even more holistic than ours! :) The Rooney transfer is a pipe dream of epic proportions in my opinion. United won't sell to Chelsea and Chelsea know it. Chelsea for their part also passed up on Cavani and Falcao.
The clubs threatening the non holistic approach this summer are United and Arsenal. I'm fairly comfortable that neither of them will get their a list targets (Fabregas, Suarez). Looks like Bale's going to Madrid. All in all the notion that Chelsea are favourites can only be predicated on the return of Mourinho. I admit it'll be quite an interesting battle between him and Pellegrini. However our squad is stronger than theirs in three crucial areas, central defence, central midfield, and forwards.
Arsenal have been the model of an holistic approach, one manager, no 'star' signings, kids coming through the youth set-up, and they've won bugger all. Chelsea have been the model of a non-holistic approach, lots of managers, plenty of 'star' signings, no kids coming through, and have won plenty.
1.618034 said:hgblue said:BillyShears said:Chelsea have signed Schurle and Van Ginkel this summer. Their approach is even more holistic than ours! :) The Rooney transfer is a pipe dream of epic proportions in my opinion. United won't sell to Chelsea and Chelsea know it. Chelsea for their part also passed up on Cavani and Falcao.
The clubs threatening the non holistic approach this summer are United and Arsenal. I'm fairly comfortable that neither of them will get their a list targets (Fabregas, Suarez). Looks like Bale's going to Madrid. All in all the notion that Chelsea are favourites can only be predicated on the return of Mourinho. I admit it'll be quite an interesting battle between him and Pellegrini. However our squad is stronger than theirs in three crucial areas, central defence, central midfield, and forwards.
Arsenal have been the model of an holistic approach, one manager, no 'star' signings, kids coming through the youth set-up, and they've won bugger all. Chelsea have been the model of a non-holistic approach, lots of managers, plenty of 'star' signings, no kids coming through, and have won plenty.
The last time Arsenal spent what we have this season on good value, quality European/world talent was just before they became "invincible"...
All those players made their reputations as Europe's finest at Arsenal.hgblue said:1.618034 said:hgblue said:Arsenal have been the model of an holistic approach, one manager, no 'star' signings, kids coming through the youth set-up, and they've won bugger all. Chelsea have been the model of a non-holistic approach, lots of managers, plenty of 'star' signings, no kids coming through, and have won plenty.
The last time Arsenal spent what we have this season on good value, quality European/world talent was just before they became "invincible"...
You think our signings are as good as Bergkamp, Pires, Overmars, Vierra, Henry? Since they stopped competing for Europe's finest they've stopped winning.
Yes. None were world stars at the time were they.hgblue said:1.618034 said:hgblue said:Arsenal have been the model of an holistic approach, one manager, no 'star' signings, kids coming through the youth set-up, and they've won bugger all. Chelsea have been the model of a non-holistic approach, lots of managers, plenty of 'star' signings, no kids coming through, and have won plenty.
The last time Arsenal spent what we have this season on good value, quality European/world talent was just before they became "invincible"...
You think our signings are as good as Bergkamp, Pires, Overmars, Vierra, Henry? Since they stopped competing for Europe's finest they've stopped winning.
Great post that really enjoyed reading thatschfc6 said:Firstly the notion that RVP won the league for United is frankly bollocks. United statistically did not improve from season 2011/12. RVP scored 26 goals compared to Rooney's 27 the season before.
RVP, scoring 26 league goals is about standard for United's main man. Let's not forget that there's normally 7-10 penalties per season for their penalty taker. If Rooney had taken the pens that RVP did, their league totals would have been similar last year.
United bought the leagues best striker, statistically they went backwards. It was City that drastically under achieved and went backwards at a canter.86-89 points will be required nearly every year to win the Prem.
United got 89 points, but still wouldn't have won the league in 2011/12.
We dropped what? 8 more points at home than the season before? Only 3 more than the season before away from home.
So you could argue that our home form cost us, reverse the derby and things would have looked a lot closer.
RVP was a good signing but he did nothing the Rooney didn't do the season before.
That asides, the holistic approach is or seems to be looking good. We have bought round pegs for round holes. Siging a Cavanini or a Falcao would have been detrimental to the team. Neither are as good as Aguero, yet both would demand to be top dog, where as Sergio is a great team player, and great impact sub and all in all a very good man to have around.
An elite signing would demand to play week in week out. How do you build a team based on this? The players we have bought seem ideal for what we need, I along with many fans believe that pace on the left and cover at right sided centre half are all we are short of an excellent squad.
The holistic approach has arguably been seen in full working order already. The players seem happier, some egos have left and even the wages seem more parable throughout the squad.
The ideas of the Spaniards and Pellegrini have made our squad look significantly stronger more balance, I dare say a tighter group with a team ethos at heart.
Emphasis seems to be with Zabba, Richards, Kompany, Aguero, Milner and Nastasic to front the squad, all players with incredible team ethic. Navas is a hard working winger, Jovetic is a grafter with a great team ethic as is Negredo and Fernadinho gave up what £4 million to join us.
We have added four international players, strong, established players yet reduced our wage bill. This makes it hard to mock the 'holistic approach'.
Pellegrini has or seems to have got the squad believing they are a team. He hears rumours in the paper, he tells the media that he is happy with his squad, but if the right player comes up, well we'll always consider it. He hears rumours about Dzeko, what does he do? He tells the World that he believes Dzeko to be a great player with an important future at City. I loved Mancini, but he sometimes didn't play the game.
Pellegrini will tell the media that Dzeko is irraplacable, a great player, someone he's admired for years. This has three very good effects.
1. Dzeko feels great, happy to play and builds his confidence. Then we see some great performances in some very difficult conditions.
2. Tell the rest of the squad that he has faith in the players here. That he will give everyone a chance.
3. Indicates to the World that Dzeko is important, even if he isn't. Thus keeping his value high.
As I say I loved Mancini, I highly rate Mourinho, but as a business man, I wouldn't want them doing my sales and purchasing.
Both make it abundantly clear that they want to buy, that they will buy at almost any price, driving prices up. Both will also make it clear as day if they dislike a player, and his value will plummet.
In my eventual summary. I think we have a better team, a better squad, and happier squad and youth will see that the appointment of Viera as an indication that we intend to take our youth very seriously.
great post.schfc6 said:Firstly the notion that RVP won the league for United is frankly bollocks. United statistically did not improve from season 2011/12. RVP scored 26 goals compared to Rooney's 27 the season before.
RVP, scoring 26 league goals is about standard for United's main man. Let's not forget that there's normally 7-10 penalties per season for their penalty taker. If Rooney had taken the pens that RVP did, their league totals would have been similar last year.
United bought the leagues best striker, statistically they went backwards. It was City that drastically under achieved and went backwards at a canter.86-89 points will be required nearly every year to win the Prem.
United got 89 points, but still wouldn't have won the league in 2011/12.
We dropped what? 8 more points at home than the season before? Only 3 more than the season before away from home.
So you could argue that our home form cost us, reverse the derby and things would have looked a lot closer.
RVP was a good signing but he did nothing the Rooney didn't do the season before.
That asides, the holistic approach is or seems to be looking good. We have bought round pegs for round holes. Siging a Cavanini or a Falcao would have been detrimental to the team. Neither are as good as Aguero, yet both would demand to be top dog, where as Sergio is a great team player, and great impact sub and all in all a very good man to have around.
An elite signing would demand to play week in week out. How do you build a team based on this? The players we have bought seem ideal for what we need, I along with many fans believe that pace on the left and cover at right sided centre half are all we are short of an excellent squad.
The holistic approach has arguably been seen in full working order already. The players seem happier, some egos have left and even the wages seem more parable throughout the squad.
The ideas of the Spaniards and Pellegrini have made our squad look significantly stronger more balance, I dare say a tighter group with a team ethos at heart.
Emphasis seems to be with Zabba, Richards, Kompany, Aguero, Milner and Nastasic to front the squad, all players with incredible team ethic. Navas is a hard working winger, Jovetic is a grafter with a great team ethic as is Negredo and Fernadinho gave up what £4 million to join us.
We have added four international players, strong, established players yet reduced our wage bill. This makes it hard to mock the 'holistic approach'.
Pellegrini has or seems to have got the squad believing they are a team. He hears rumours in the paper, he tells the media that he is happy with his squad, but if the right player comes up, well we'll always consider it. He hears rumours about Dzeko, what does he do? He tells the World that he believes Dzeko to be a great player with an important future at City. I loved Mancini, but he sometimes didn't play the game.
Pellegrini will tell the media that Dzeko is irraplacable, a great player, someone he's admired for years. This has three very good effects.
1. Dzeko feels great, happy to play and builds his confidence. Then we see some great performances in some very difficult conditions.
2. Tell the rest of the squad that he has faith in the players here. That he will give everyone a chance.
3. Indicates to the World that Dzeko is important, even if he isn't. Thus keeping his value high.
As I say I loved Mancini, I highly rate Mourinho, but as a business man, I wouldn't want them doing my sales and purchasing.
Both make it abundantly clear that they want to buy, that they will buy at almost any price, driving prices up. Both will also make it clear as day if they dislike a player, and his value will plummet.
In my eventual summary. I think we have a better team, a better squad, and happier squad and youth will see that the appointment of Viera as an indication that we intend to take our youth very seriously.
They certainly should have been the building blocks and I think Pellers will get a bit of stick if we have another pot-free season. We know we've spent a fortune (we can't go five bloody minutes without being reminded of the fact) but winning the cup and league showed we had spent it wisely. Had we not been treated to the collective brain-fart at Wembley another block would have been in place and added justification to the spending.Shadz69 said:Winning an Fa cup and league in succesive seasons were really the building blocks of a footballing empire.I find it strange haw some fans can just dismiss them and we are only starting now to build this dynasty.No matter what comes in the next few years we stand on the shoulders of giants.
meeesh said:johnmc said:meeesh said:fact is RVP was their out and out best player,and without him they would never have finished top
How are you sure of this? Considering you are calling it a Fact.
Coz I watched all the football last season,have u been away or somert ?
johnmc said:meeesh said:johnmc said:How are you sure of this? Considering you are calling it a Fact.
Coz I watched all the football last season,have u been away or somert ?
Please look into the definition of fact. Thanks
hgblue said:People who believe the signing of RVP wasn't pivotal in the tital race last season don't know what they're talking about imo.