The IRA

[jmdmc]

I think one of the most telling things on this thread is how most of our Irish posters just want to leave the past behind and get on with the future.
I guess that's the difference between reading things and actually living through the experiences.

Moving on from mutually assured destruction ... we chose money (other peoples) instead!

FFS! Good party tho'!

State of the place now.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I know that. Everyone knew that. My point was not about each side knowing who was who, It's the assumption that they could have been "taken out" at any time that i think is wrong.

Why is it wrong that the British Army couldn't have been taken out the major IRA players "if" the order had been given for shall we say a night of the long knives. the British Army could most certainly have done the job in double quick time.

As an interesting aside here, The IRA started to plant what was known as 'Post box bombs' in the red post boxes around the UK. Apparently, Churchill, with the Luftwaffe threat and German divisions massing over the channel, unleashed agents to Ireland, where Top IRA personnel were subsequently eliminated. So it seems, we had neither the time or inclination to pussy-foot around with a few misguided romantics whilst trying to fend off a potential invader that would have had far more serious repercussions.
So, as stated, when Thatcher took the gloves off the SAS, the decline started.
9/11, in my opinion, was the catalyst. The US needed worldwide support, and the yanks finally realised that Noraid was'nt some kind of Irish Oxfam.

 

[bluetoo]

Been following this thread with some interest and, for the most part I'm glad to see the restraint most have shown by not allowing the debate disintegrate into the usual depressing sectarian stuck record. Without doubt its an extremely emotive subject and those directly affected by the events of the troubles (and lets face it, in the UK, we all have been in one way or another) will do well to at least try to see things from an opposing perspective for the purposes of discussion. If people allow themselves to become polarized by taking an intransigent stance then nothing will be gained.

More specifically, and for my part, I would like to pose a few questions to those interested:

If the political situation in your home surrounding area was such that it meant a sustained and institutional bias against what constitutes your 'section' of community to include discrimination in housing, religion, electoral equality, right to assembly and peaceful protest,policing and inclusivity in social and political representative bodies..., how would you react?

If all other actions fail to address what are seen to be social and political injustices and the only outcome you could see for inaction was a further erosion of rights and given that the consensus of belief was that the situation would become progressively worse, would you consider an alternative approach such as an armed struggle?

If your community was in disarray with no clear, effective signs of leadership and what was seen to be a resistance movement formed, would you be part of it?

If such a movement was small in number against one of the most technologically advanced,technically astute and best equipped armies in the world, would you expect your tactics to include meeting such an army head on?

alternatively:

If your community has been included as part of the United Kingdom by constitutional means and mutual agreement and you became aware that the parent government could and would be prepared to seemingly 'give concessions' to what you determine to be a terrorist army, would you step in to what you believed to be the vacuum created by the British Governments inaction and lack of political will by taking up arms in defence of your heritage?

I have no agenda in posing any of these questions....I do however see value in urging others to consider viewing the situation from differing perspectives and possibly gaining a greater insight by debating them having considered, sometimes for the first time, an opposing point of view.

 

[The Stockport Iniesta]

Didnt want to delve back in but if the Army did know who the players were yet didnt take them out and then those players went on to cause the deaths of innocents then the British Army haven't done their job have they? Isnt that negligence?

The army could only mount such an op on the say so of the PM of the day.

 

[SWP's back]

So to summarise, you guys feel that all historic incidents, on both sides are still worth discussion/debate/arguing over as we strive to move forward?

Some of the responses on this thread have shocked me to be honest.

Utter fucking bullshit. You knew exactly what sort of response you'd get on here.

Yep

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

Been following this thread with soome interest and, for the most part I'm glad to see the restraint most have shown by not allowing the debate disintegrate into the usual depressing sectarian stuck record. Without doubt its an extremely emotive subject and those directly affected by the events of the troubles (and lets face it, in the UK, we all have been in one way or another) will do well to at least try to see things from an opposing perspective for the purposes of discussion. If people allow themselves to become polarized by taking an intransigent stance then nothing will be gained.

More specifically, and for my part, I would like to pose a few questions to those interested:

If the political situation in your home surrounding area was such that it meant a sustained and institutional bias against what constitutes your 'section' of community to include discrimination in housing, religion, electoral equality, right to assembly and peaceful protest,policing and inclusivity in social and political representative bodies..., how would you react?

If all other actions fail to address what are seen to be social and political injustices and the only outcome you could see for inaction was a further erosion of rights and given that the consensus of belief was that the situation would become progressively worse, would you consider an alternative approach such as an armed struggle?

If your community was in disarray with no clear, effective signs of leadership and what was seen to be a resistance movement formed, would you be part of it?

If such a movement was small in number against one of the most technologically advanced,technically astute and best equipped armies in the world, would you expect your tactics to include meeting such an army head on?

alternatively:

If your community has been included as part of the United Kingdom by constitutional means and mutual agreement and you became aware that the parent government could and would be prepared to seemingly 'give concessions' to what you determine to be a terrorist army, would you step in to what you believed to be the vacuum created by the British Governments inaction and lack of political will by taking up arms in defence of your heritage?

I have no agenda in posing any of these questions....I do however see value in urging others to consider viewing the situation from differing perspectives and possibly gaining a greater insight by debating them having considered, sometimes for the first time, an opposing point of view.

Excellent points...well put.

It's hard to fall into a "you don't really know, cos you haven't lived here" situation...but these are fantastic questions.

 

[Citizen52]

Been following this thread with soome interest and, for the most part I'm glad to see the restraint most have shown by not allowing the debate disintegrate into the usual depressing sectarian stuck record. Without doubt its an extremely emotive subject and those directly affected by the events of the troubles (and lets face it, in the UK, we all have been in one way or another) will do well to at least try to see things from an opposing perspective for the purposes of discussion. If people allow themselves to become polarized by taking an intransigent stance then nothing will be gained.

More specifically, and for my part, I would like to pose a few questions to those interested:

If the political situation in your home surrounding area was such that it meant a sustained and institutional bias against what constitutes your 'section' of community to include discrimination in housing, religion, electoral equality, right to assembly and peaceful protest,policing and inclusivity in social and political representative bodies..., how would you react?

If all other actions fail to address what are seen to be social and political injustices and the only outcome you could see for inaction was a further erosion of rights and given that the consensus of belief was that the situation would become progressively worse, would you consider an alternative approach such as an armed struggle?

If your community was in disarray with no clear, effective signs of leadership and what was seen to be a resistance movement formed, would you be part of it?

If such a movement was small in number against one of the most technologically advanced,technically astute and best equipped armies in the world, would you expect your tactics to include meeting such an army head on?

alternatively:

If your community has been included as part of the United Kingdom by constitutional means and mutual agreement and you became aware that the parent government could and would be prepared to seemingly 'give concessions' to what you determine to be a terrorist army, would you step in to what you believed to be the vacuum created by the British Governments inaction and lack of political will by taking up arms in defence of your heritage?

I have no agenda in posing any of these questions....I do however see value in urging others to consider viewing the situation from differing perspectives and possibly gaining a greater insight by debating them having considered, sometimes for the first time, an opposing point of view.

Excellent points...well put.

It's hard to fall into a "you don't really know, cos you haven't lived here" situation...but these are fantastic questions.

It is a good post that with the ability to take perspective from either viewpoint.

Mackenzie's was good as well, I lived over there for a while and just got the impression people wanted to move on with their lives. It's a different generation now for the most part although you do still get the flashpoint areas like the Short Strand the other month. It isn't perfect but it's come on a long way from what it must have been like a few decades ago, thankfully.

 

[talkativesprout]

If the political situation in your home surrounding area was such that it meant a sustained and institutional bias against what constitutes your 'section' of community to include discrimination in housing, religion, electoral equality, right to assembly and peaceful protest,policing and inclusivity in social and political representative bodies..., how would you react?

I would go out and blow the shit out of innocents doing shoping, stick bombs under the bastards cars not caring who was in it at the time, wife, kids, babysitter or mechanic, feckers are all the same.

If all other actions fail to address what are seen to be social and political injustices and the only outcome you could see for inaction was a further erosion of rights and given that the consensus of belief was that the situation would become progressively worse, would you consider an alternative approach such as an armed struggle?

Id measure the effectiveness of all the actions taken. id then do the above.

If such a movement was small in number against one of the most technologically advanced,technically astute and best equipped armies in the world, would you expect your tactics to include meeting such an army head on?

Not on your Nelly, id attack people as far away as can be connected to me as possible, i wouldnt want anyone knowing who i was, that way i wouldnt get caught and my personal disgrace at the situation could be misinterpreted as the whole of Ireland.

If your community was in disarray with no clear, effective signs of leadership and what was seen to be a resistance movement formed, would you be part of it?

Dead right, doesnt every pathological nobody want a gun and bomb to let the world know they have power ?

 

[bluetoo]

Dead right, doesnt every pathological nobody want a gun and bomb to let the world know they have power ?

I can only imagine that your replies are somewhat tongue in cheek albeit with a healthy dose of cynicism that makes them more believable. My aim was to outline (maybe not very successfully), the viewpoint of potential recruits for paramilitary organisations in the North. You may feel you have good reason to be dismissive due to your revulsion at the horrific events that have blighted us for so long and I wont say you arent entitled.

However, dismissing members of these organisations as 'pathological nobodies' is as dangerous as it is misleading. It is also counter productive. We now have a society where large swathes of the population maintain an affinity with paramilitaries as part of their culture.A large proportion of people in the North will condemn the actions of paramilitary organisations yet still harbour a regard for them.

If we ignore their influence we run a very real risk of descending back into the nightmare scenario that many of us grew up with. Put simply, when we take away the need (perceived or otherwise) of people to tip their hat to the 'protector in the shadows', we will go a long way to sustainable peace.We cannot do that if we arent aware of the depth of feeling that formed these organisations in the first place.

 

[totallywired]

Some of the responses on this thread have shocked me to be honest.

Utter fucking bullshit. You knew exactly what sort of response you'd get on here.

Yep

Only by the purile.<br /><br />-- Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:31 pm --<br /><br />

I know that. Everyone knew that. My point was not about each side knowing who was who, It's the assumption that they could have been "taken out" at any time that i think is wrong.

Why is it wrong that the British Army couldn't have been taken out the major IRA players "if" the order had been given for shall we say a night of the long knives. the British Army could most certainly have done the job in double quick time.

I`m sure they could have killed many more if they had been unleashed, but they should not bleat if they take a hit from there enemy.