"The Keeper"

When it comes down to Bert & Swiftly it's all about opinions. My Dad saw both on a regular basis and he maintained that Bert was better (but not much in it). One thing that all of that generation agree about is that they when they were playing they were both the best keepers in England by a mile.
 
Some years ago, @Gary James started to research a book about Swift, which was never published. IIRC, Gary said that one of the things he wanted to cover was the debate over which of Swift or Trautmann was better. If Gary happens to be around and has time, maybe he can confirm or refute this, but my memory is that he said the majority view of those who saw both at their peak was that Swift edged it. FWIW, my grandad, who died in 1989 and had watched City since the Hyde Road days, was also of that view. Both men were widely recognised to be English football's best 'keeper by a mile for most of their respective careers, though.

The incredible thing for me about Trautmann as a footballer is that he never played in serious, organised football match until he was a PoW in England aged 24. It's never really mentioned, but to start that late and become a genuinely world class player (remember that Bert's contemporary, the legendary Yashin, hailed himself and Trautmann as the world's two great goalkeepers) is truly phenomenal.
Sadly, as another book was published on Swift after I'd written about 60,000 words of a 100,000 word biography, I never got the chance to publish my Swift biography. It was to be written to the same level of detail as my Mercer biog. ah well!

To answer the question though.... The majority of people who saw both Swift and Trautmann at their peak rated Swift the better keeper. Sadly time moves on and there are few alive now who can honestly say they saw Swift at his peak - his final post war seasons he was rated the greatest keeper in Eurooe but had become more of a showman than a great keeper towards the end. Also, it's worth saying that many Blues today claim Colin Bell as the greatest but how long before David Silva or someone else is perceived as the greatest ever player? Will the older generation accept that? It's all subjective and difficult to compare eras. I once interviewed Johnny Williamson who did actually play with both and he said "you pick which one you want and I'll have the other because they were the two greatest and I think we'd both be happy with our choice."

When I'm asked I usually say that Swift was the greatest English keeper to play for City and Trautmann was greatest non-English.

Incidentally, on the film this is nothing to do with Warren Clarke's script.
 
Sadly, as another book was published on Swift after I'd written about 60,000 words of a 100,000 word biography, I never got the chance to publish my Swift biography. It was to be written to the same level of detail as my Mercer biog. ah well!

To answer the question though.... The majority of people who saw both Swift and Trautmann at their peak rated Swift the better keeper. Sadly time moves on and there are few alive now who can honestly say they saw Swift at his peak - his final post war seasons he was rated the greatest keeper in Eurooe but had become more of a showman than a great keeper towards the end. Also, it's worth saying that many Blues today claim Colin Bell as the greatest but how long before David Silva or someone else is perceived as the greatest ever player? Will the older generation accept that? It's all subjective and difficult to compare eras. I once interviewed Johnny Williamson who did actually play with both and he said "you pick which one you want and I'll have the other because they were the two greatest and I think we'd both be happy with our choice."

When I'm asked I usually say that Swift was the greatest English keeper to play for City and Trautmann was greatest non-English.

Incidentally, on the film this is nothing to do with Warren Clarke's script.

Yes, my Dad is 78 now and remembers watching Swift in the 1940s. But his memories are of Frank joking around with the young boys behind the goal and performing his party piece of catching the ball one-handed rather than anything more revelatory about his actual goalkeeping. You'd need to be pushing 90 now to have seen Swift pre-War, so the numbers who can assess the respective merits of the two men are obviously going to be very limited.

Funnily enough, in 1973/4, City ran a vote through the match programme for our Greatest Player of all Time. The results were published for the Stoke game on New Year's Day, and Bert won it, with Swift coming second. Details here: https://norepartee.wordpress.com/2014/09/06/1973-74-stoke-home/

No surprise in Bert polling better than Swift, I suppose, simply by virtue of being a more recent player (IIRC, Spurs did one recently online and the legendary Dave Mackay didn't even make their Greatest XI, which outraged an older Spurs fan of my acquaintance). Even in 1973, you'd have had to be well into your forties to have seen Frank at his peak. Both of them remain up there among the all-time great goalkeepers in English football, in any case, along with people like Banks, Jennings, Shilton et al.

That poll in 1973/4 backs up what you say about opinions changing over time. Of the then-current or recent players, only Summerbee and Book made the top six, yet Bell and Lee, in terms of international caps at least, won greater recognition at the time. And given that Bell is now widely rated as the best ever, it seems particularly odd that he didn't feature - he'd been at City nearly 8 years by this point, had been a key man in a superbly successful side and was more or less at his peak, so it's not as if he hadn't proved his worth. Maybe his subsequent injury brought home to people how much we lost when he wasn't there.

I only ever saw Bell after his injury, but I'd have thought that Silva must be close to deserving the crown now, but I know others disagree. But then my grandad and others of his generation always maintained that Doherty was a class above any other outfield player we'd had. And he told me that, in the thirties, the older generation still insisted that Meredith in his first spell was better than Doherty! There's definitely a big generational factor.
 
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Which of the 2 books about bert is the better read. The one by catherine clay or the one by Rowling. ??.
 
Lev Yashin said there were only two great keepers in his day: himself(!) and Bert, who was my first great City hero.
 
Interesting bit from the trailer.." whats up with his neck?"...."its a war wound"
I wonder if the film will shed any more light on this...it could be completely unrelated to the 1956 injury...

Just going back to the point raised in a prev thread re the neck injury..and noting other posters recollection of Bert having neck trouble prior to the Wembley final...ive checked Ray Goble's "Manchester City..a Complete Record 1887-1987" book and its interesting to note that after making his debut midway thru the 1949/50 season,Trautmann missed only 3 games up until season 1955/56.....During this season he played 40 league games out of 42,missing only Burnley at home (April 14th) and Luton away.(.April 21st) presumably through injury,,?. Before returning for the last match of the season away at Portsmouth(April 28th)...which i believe coincided with him collecting his Player of the year award around that time...

It was mid December 1956 before Trautmann played again after the final.

I suspect Trautmann did have a problem towards the end of the 55/56 season..but no way was he going to miss the FA cup final...and true grit and determination made this Blue man of steel present himself for both the POTY award and the Cup final....@Vienna70 recalls some info on a neck injury prior to the final..

I am very interested to know if the film sheds any light on this point...it may well be that the arguably the greatest keeper this country has ever seen...was also..,by far,..the bravest.
 
Wow that's looks great cant wait for it
My uncle used to go on about bert being his football hero
But then again he said big Frank was better
 

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