The Labour Government

[hampshireblue]

Correct but they're not, hospital waiting lists are increasing, housing shortage all linked to population expanding quicker than it can cope with.

We have exactly those issues where I live, however.. the population is swayed heavily towards white, British and about average for the UK with around 20% of people over the age of 60. Those figures derived from various sources.

There is a debate going on over a proposed development of a brownfield site. A well known retirement homes builder is applying for planning permission. There is an outcry that the town needs affordable housing for the youngsters, which it does. The point though, is that without immigration to blame the Social Media ire has turned on the older people, blaming them for the lack of housing, Doctor's appointments and even the heavy traffic in the town. The next doctor's appointment is 3rd week in January.

My point is that it becomes easy to blame any group of people for the woes that an area and the country faces but it is by no means clear cut on any one group. Much of the housing shortage can be attributed to the very different nature of the diverse way families now live eg following divorce etc, but it is easy to blame minority groups

Oh, by the way, the brownfield site is actually the town's police station that has been sitting empty for at leat the last 8 years.

 

[The perfect fumble]

In the 80s, the Tories were able to strip back employment protections, and piece by piece take apart all low wage protections.

Can you imagine today, if anyone started talking about 'natural rates of unemployment', or started cutting the minimum wage until it was worthless, and then abolishing it? Council houses weren't being built - they were being sold off. Railways are going to be nationalised, bus companies deregulated, and polling consistently shows that the majority of the public would support energy and water renationalisation.

Going back further, is much more complex, because society was so different, and I wasn't there to understand any of those complexities. But that doesn't change my argument that we're further to the left economically now than we were from the late 70s to mid 90s.

The basic tenets of Thatcherism are all around us, we live with them everyday, here and there, their more egregious consequences are being timidly addressed with the odd sticking plaster, applied piecemeal by dull political minnows like Starmer and Reeves, who still operate in her shadow.

Thatcherite fundamentals are very much in place and they still will be five years from now.

The Overton window hasn't moved to the left, we've just given it a wipe.

 

[bluenova]

The basic tenets of Thatcherism are all around us, we live with them everyday, here and there, their more egregious consequences are being timidly addressed with the odd sticking plaster, applied piecemeal by dull political minnows like Starmer and Reeves, who still operate in her shadow.

Thatcherite fundamentals are very much in place and they still will be five years from now.

The Overton window hasn't moved to the left, we've just given it a wipe.

What do you think is more right wing than the 80s?

 

[meltonblue]

I agree on the second part, but if anything, I think the Overton window has moved to the left. Both socially and economically, the 80s were a lot more right wing than society today.

I was referring more to over the last twenty years and both main parties since the end of new Labour and start of the coalition.

Comparing it to Thatchers time is more interesting, I can see arguments for both, although I do think the window has narrowed further on the left.

 

[Brewster's millions]

In the 80s, the Tories were able to strip back employment protections, and piece by piece take apart all low wage protections.

Can you imagine today, if anyone started talking about 'natural rates of unemployment', or started cutting the minimum wage until it was worthless, and then abolishing it? Council houses weren't being built - they were being sold off. Railways are going to be nationalised, bus companies deregulated, and polling consistently shows that the majority of the public would support energy and water renationalisation.

Going back further, is much more complex, because society was so different, and I wasn't there to understand any of those complexities. But that doesn't change my argument that we're further to the left economically now than we were from the late 70s to mid 90s.

Politicians may not currently refer to the natural rate of unemployment, and discuss its movement in terms of the government’s policy decisions, but the concept itself is still absolutely central to UK economic policy.

The OBR’s entire forecasting process revolves around the natural rate of unemployment, and the economy’s supply performance more generally, and so the economic doctrines which became mainstream under Thatcher are still very much in place. Monetary growth in itself isn’t a key metric for the Bank of England, but again the analysis of the supply side and the natural rate of unemployment within that is still the predominant focus.

Monetary policy independence and to a lesser extent the introduction of the OBR means that politicians refer to these factors much less than they did previously, but the options available to them in terms of fiscal decisions are still determined by them.

I certainly wouldn’t agree with your argument about being economically further left currently than at any time since the mid-90s. The growth in e-commerce for example has shifted the economy further right in terms of its competitive structure, and that won’t change anytime soon.

Also, the railways and buses are questionable bellwethers in terms of the electorate’s preference for renationalisation.

 

[The perfect fumble]

What do you think is more right wing than the 80s?

With the exception of the minimum wage, everything with added Brexit.

Of course 80s Thatcher spunked our oil wealth to finance the great give away to the rich, no such largesse exists today.

UK workers are on course for two decades of lost living standards with real wages not forecast to recover to their 2008 level until 2028. The TUC estimates that the average worker has lost £14,800 since 2008.

The difference between now and the 80s, is the 80s was when it happened, and now is its consequences. I'm 67 years old, I remember the world before Thatcher, I remember possibilities that most people under forty have difficulty imagining, that's not a criticism, that's just the reality of the narrow window of possibilities we live in now.

I went to university in 1975, with a full grant and no fees, my family lived in a council house, I joined a company final salary pension scheme in 1980 and cashed in two of them to retire early when I was 60.

I lived in a world where you travelled by British Rail, had nationalised gas, electricity, water and a true NHS without a whiff of the private sector, Thatcher and New Labour destroyed all of it.

Today it's more right wing than the 80s, because in the 80s it was still possible to imagine a different world, soon, there'll be no one left alive who will be able to even conceptualise the post war social contract.

 

[bluenova]

With the exception of the minimum wage, everything with added Brexit.

Of course 80s Thatcher spunked our oil wealth to finance the great give away to the rich, no such largesse exists today.

UK workers are on course for two decades of lost living standards with real wages not forecast to recover to their 2008 level until 2028. The TUC estimates that the average worker has lost £14,800 since 2008.

The difference between now and the 80s, is the 80s was when it happened, and now is its consequences. I'm 67 years old, I remember the world before Thatcher, I remember possibilities that most people under forty have difficulty imagining, that's not a criticism, that's just the reality of the narrow window of possibilities we live in now.

I went to university in 1975, with a full grant and no fees, my family lived in a council house, I joined a company final salary pension scheme in 1980 and cashed in two of them to retire early when I was 60.

I lived in a world where you travelled by British rail, had nationalised gas, electricity, water and a true NHS without a whiff of the private sector, Thatcher and New Labour destroyed all of it.

Today it's more right wing than the 80s, because in the 80s it was still possible to imagine a different world, soon, there'll be no one left alive who will be able to even conceptualise the post war social contract.

I agree about the changes that have happened over that time period.

What I would say is that the Overton window surely refers to what's politically acceptable, and I don't think the callous economics, and stripping back of employment rights that we saw in the 80s, would be acceptable for any mainstream party now. So we're still living with many of the consequences, but the movement has been to the left since then.

 

[Vic]

He’s not the only one who couldn’t care less.
Assuming it’s not Labour voters who predominantly signed the petition there’s another 15 million of them who didn’t sign it compared to the 3 million that have, so just 1 in 6 non-Labour voters feel strongly enough about it to sign a pointless petition.

Did no-one start a similar petition when Liar Johnson unlawfully prorogued Parliament?

No-one had time to do it with Truss.

 

[Vic]

What do you think is more right wing than the 80s?

Greed is good.

 

[dennishasdoneit]