The Labour Government

That isn't the job of politicians or even civil servants with a list. It's the probation service's job.



Aren't you describing the system created by conservative austerity? Weird take.




It's like you lack consequential thought or something. The public disorder was only a glimpse of what was to come if it went unchecked. For some reason people believed they were untouchable, now they know they aren't. Inciting violent disorder and spreading falsehoods you know will lead to violence isn't a minor thing.

No the decision to imprison those on the streets and let out others was a decision by this govt. If the prisons were so full there wouldn't have been such a rush to put more people in them. It was political.

Anyhow Bart I can only speak to dishonest dummies for so long before they bore me. Why don't you tell someone to commit suicide that's your usuall level of decent conversation.

Bart VicTory and Blueuntrue the new bluemoon right:-)
 
Last edited:
He's lying by claiming the current working age population and the govt cannot find the means to keep the wfa, he's aware that the govt doesn't collect, chase or tax those that don't even pay the correct tax.

This is a generalisation that isn't even true. Of course they do, they already persue high profile Tax evaders through the courts? Could they do more of course they do. But it isn't zero cost and something done overnight.

You need more people working in HMRC and more funds to even begin the work.

How do you know it isn't something in the pipeline for the budget or further down the line?


What he is trying to do and failing badly is stick up for this current govt and argues the poster not the policy.

We all know if the Tories did this he would be calling them out.

And you are correct by doing so he is now coming across like a Tory. Its sad for him but amusing for us when a self certified smart arse digs a hole so deep he shows us he is actually pretty darn stupid.

I didn't claim that. It's a choice. You've read me speaking generally and taken it to onky be about a specific. Demographic aging means that the current model of paying for people in retirement has a declining shelf-life.

But choices have to be made.

WFA could be supported but it shouldn’t be, because it's a crap way of alleviating pensioner poverty compared to a targeted approach.
 
8 dead after trying to illegally cross the channel again sadly.

Does Starmer and Labour have blood on their hands or is it different for them?

Different as they have only just got through the door after 14 years of Tory failure - will take time to reduce numbers and resolve this, at least another couple years.
 
No the decision to imprison those on the streets and let out others was a decision by this govt. If the prisons were so full there wouldn't have been such a rush to put more people in them. It was political.

Anyhow Bart I can only speak to dishonest dummies before they bore me. Why don't you tell someone to commit suicide that's your usuall level of decent conversation.

Bart VicTory and Blueuntrue the new bluemoon right:-)

If David Icke and David Brent had a love child.
 
Got to admit that it nearly kicked off when I visited my aunt and uncle last week.
Both in their 70s, both have good occ pens and savings (although he has recently returned to work part time because their savings are decreasing rapidly).
They readily admit though that they have "middle class tastes but working class pockets."
I reminded them that the welfare state was set up to deal with "need".....nothing else.
And yet I could also see their argument too....the WFA is the only thing they have ever received, after a life of working since they were 15 and they feel incensed that they have been targeted, when so many get much more from the State.

I honestly believe that the whole system needs an overhaul, because we have people who have never claimed a penny thinking "well, what was the point?"
There is a really easy solution to all of this. Pay the WFA as a direct credit or discount on an energy account and then we'll see who moans and who actually does need/use it for energy..

Most people I've spoken to use the WFA for a holiday or Christmas... Long before it even gets cold.
 
There is a really easy solution to all of this. Pay the WFA as a direct credit or discount on an energy account and then we'll see who moans and who actually does need/use it for energy..

Most people I've spoken to use the WFA for a holiday or Christmas... Long before it even gets cold.
I might be misunderstanding you but If that was the case surely they'd just put the money they saved on energy towards a holiday or Xmas?
 
There is a really easy solution to all of this. Pay the WFA as a direct credit or discount on an energy account and then we'll see who moans and who actually does need/use it for energy..

Most people I've spoken to use the WFA for a holiday or Christmas... Long before it even gets cold.
My aunt uses it to buy her 4 grandkids Christmas presents.
And yes, that's a good idea....sounds worth exploring anyway.

There is "waste" in every area of the Welfare State and it has become an almost unstoppable juggernaut.

For example, I know of someone who uses her PIP for facials and Botox injections and has no shame in saying it.
That's the type of waste we need to stop, and it detracts from those in genuine need of the payments.
 
Last edited:
I might be misunderstanding you but If that was the case surely they'd just put the money they saved on energy towards a holiday or Xmas?
If I rephrase it this way - I don't need financial help with my christmas presents or my next holiday so should I get £200 to go towards my energy?
 
Disagree with the bolded bit. It was designed so that people like your Aunt and Uncle felt they had a stake in it. What better way to further undermine the concept of universalism. Coming to an NHS near you.


This contrasts with how the architects of thw welfare state saw things. Whether one was Labourist, one nation Tory, or Liberal, it represented a social wage. Universal social security provided a floor designed to catch anyone who fell on hard times. Welfare was never a luxury, despite how the unchanging propaganda of the last 45 years styles it, nor was it a product of high-minded enlightenment by clever, compassionate politicians. It was a gain extracted from capital by labour as the cost of avoiding social unrest and certain kinds of events. The fact of universalism gave other layers in society a stake in the social security system. Better off families might not have needed child benefit, for example, but it gave them extra spending power they could splash on extra clothes, treats for the children (and treats for themselves). But by extending them a stake, it was hoped opposition to their losing an entitlement would protect those who really needed it - families crippled by low wages and debt, mums financially controlled by abusive husbands, and so on. And as imperfect as it was, universalism was a bureaucratic expression of solidarity.

"Universalism" seems to be used in different ways, and may not be incompatible with the aim of meeting need. I think there may be an illogical leap in the bit you quote from the article.

Universal social security provided a floor designed to catch anyone who fell on hard times. Welfare was never a luxury.....The fact of universalism gave other layers in society a stake in the social security system.
THEN
Better off families might not have needed child benefit, for example, but it gave them extra spending power they could splash on extra clothes, treats for the children (and treats for themselves). But by extending them a stake, it was hoped opposition to their losing an entitlement would protect those who really needed it.


The leap is from saying what social security was designed for - and the stake everyone had in it (first bit) to a different sort of universality (that everyone should receive benefits).

Does "universal benefit" mean that anyone who needs a benefit will get it, or does it mean that everyone should get it? There may be political advantage in getting a "buy-in" (everyone gets a bit out of the welfare state) but if, as stated, welfare is to provide a floor for anyone who falls on hard times, that's where universality comes in. The state pension may be the only "universal benefit" (paid regardless of income, though taxable) - child benefit only goes to people with children (though may benefit the whole community as an incentive to maintain the population), and no-one is suggesting that disability benefits should go to people who are not disabled. We pay taxes/NI for benefits which we may or may not need in the future (e.g. if we should qualify as disabled) - it's effectively an insurance policy.

[The stuff about council tax and who should get a discount is mostly wide of the mark, as the bulk of council spending is also on care for those who need it, not on running libraries or emptying bins. Local services used to be funded from rates, which threw up some anomalies, and Thatcher's poll tax replaced it - saving the landed gentry many millions of pounds - and the council tax is a Tory cobbled compromise based on size of house, leaving the landed gentry still saving many millions of pounds. The rates might have been flawed, but it was a tax hard to avoid, and based on how much land people occupied - and taxing how much land people occupy seems eminently sensible when it's scarce.]
 
I wasn't talking about the state pension. I was talking about WFA.

Thanks for confirming I was correct.

What's shameful is the attitude of an increasing amount of older people who have an entitlement beyond the means of the support that can be offered by the working age population. The safety net is only able to exist based on a social contract not entitlement. If older people abuse the social contract, as many have.

when NIMBYs, Tory voters, people deliberately avoiding paying their own care costs, older people can't reasonably expect to get the same benefits or entitlements (which is paid for by the working age population).
Plenty of other benefits not means testing PIP, Attendance allowance single occupancy council tax for instance would you also be in favour of removing these for people who don't qualify for means tested benefits?
 

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top
  AdBlock Detected
Bluemoon relies on advertising to pay our hosting fees. Please support the site by disabling your ad blocking software to help keep the forum sustainable. Thanks.