The Labour Government

[hcblue95]

In short get some of the unethical false economically inactive lazy bastads back in work.

No offence but aren't you quite overweight? You don't see any hypocrisy in that?

 

[Kompany Car]

Whilst I agree with what you say, it needs to be recognised that many newly qualified doctors emigrate to Australia or Canada due to higher pay and better working conditions, and any pay rise needs to address this retention issue. Although I haven’t seen any stats on this, all three of my children knew several medics at uni and many have emigrated within a year or two of qualifying.

There's certainly no shortage of demand for people wanting to undertake medical degrees, they are oversubscribed with an acceptance rate of only 10% as the number of places are capped.

The issue of medical staff emigrating for higher wages does need to be addressed. According to fullfact.org its around 19%. The cost of training a doctor appears to be around 175k to 200k post graduation (a lower end estimate), maybe the approach should be to tie the doctor into an agreement which mandates them to pay back their training fees should they leave the UK within a particular time frame.

This approach is very common in the private sector for apprenticeships and graduates wanting to do further study whilst working. Its also in line with those who train to be pilots in the RAF who have to sign up to 12 yrs service.

At least by doing that the costs are recouped allowing training of other doctors coming through the system.

I know this was previously mooted by Hunt (who I'm by no means a fan of), but the BMA were up in arms about it. Maybe that needs to be part of the bargaining around the pay settlement they want.

 

[Blue Maverick]

RPI is certainly not used for pay awards in the private sector, everything is referenced to CPI and what the market can tolerate, based upon an acceptable level of staff turnover and shareholder expectations.

There are a small subset of private sector pensions that are linked to RPI as there are virtually no private sector companies that offer final salary pensions. The vast majority, certainly those since the early 2000s where the last few companies were offering final salary schemes, are all capped at the lesser of RPI or 2.5%, there are a number of much older pensions with limited price indexation to a maximum of 5%.

Mortgage rates for RPI are only part of the list, its a very home owner focussed "basket of goods" they use by comparison to CPI all of which have increased above other goods and services.

As I said I have no issue with junior doctors or anyone for that matter getting decent pay rises but it needs to be tempered with realism.

If you were someone on minimum wage or just above, seeing a junior doctor 5 years out of Uni on 65k demanding a 35% pay rise its a bit galling. Across most sectors peoples pay has stagnated, many companies have had a policy of those earning higher wages getting much smaller pay increases which are well below the cost of living and trying to give a bit more to those on lower salaries who are disproportionately affected due to their lower levels of disposable income.

The lower end we’re getting proportionally better pay rises compared to higher earners (whatever that means) but I’d argue you are paid for what you know etc, when you see some diversity or HR person on a junior doctors wage you have to question that.

 

[kaz7]

Loving having grown ups in charge , everything they are saying is measured, sensible and gimmick free , breath of fresh air

 

[Manc in London]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-67876164

They actually had a 2% pay rise in 22/23 and 8.8% in 23/24 but appear to want another 35% to correct for lower than average pay growth.

I understand where they are coming from. The junior doctors pay is much lower than it should be.

On a related topic, we should be paying off study fees of doctors and nurses after a number of years of continuous service in the NHS. It's odd that we charge people to take up such key roles. This would certainly help with recruitment and retention, and therefore the ability of the NHS to treat a higher number of people.

 

[Manc in London]

The lower end we’re getting proportionally better pay rises compared to higher earners (whatever that means) but I’d argue you are paid for what you know etc, when you see some diversity or HR person on a junior doctors wage you have to question that.

A HR manager or business partner in the NHS will earn much more than a Junior Doctor. You are looking at as much as 40% more.

There are performance management staff in Trusts, with no managerial responsibilities or budget, who earn as much, if not more than Junior Doctors. It just doesn't make any sense why Doctors are paid so low.

 

[Kompany Car]

I’d argue you are paid for what you know

Never been the case unfortunately.

 

[Kompany Car]

A HR manager or business partner in the NHS will earn much more than a Junior Doctor. You are looking at as much as 40% more.

There are performance management staff in Trusts, with no managerial responsibilities or budget, who earn as much, if not more than Junior Doctors. It just doesn't make any sense why Doctors are paid so low.

Looking at it the wrong way, it doesn't make sense why the other roles are paid so highly.

 

[BrianW]

Looking at it the wrong way, it doesn't make sense why the other roles are paid so highly.

Maybe because it's the market rate.

Having said that, if you consistently underpay someone, the chances are that sooner or later they will leave, and doctors and nurses have opportunities in Australia, to name but one place.

My view is it is very bad policy to treat your staff like shit, as it costs fortunes to replace them. It's not like you can just walk down to the corner and find a brain surgeon under a lamppost, desperate for work at any salary.

 

[MikeF]

What I can’t get my head round is how the unions have just let them accept minuscule increases over the last however many years. Then to come and expect 35% increase just seems odd to me.