The Labour Government

[Chippy_boy]

I debunked every scenario you put up, showing your state of total blinkered-ness.

Sharia law will never be part of legal process in this country. This is 99.9999999% more likely to be true than Labour never winning a seat in the north.

Re 1. Agreeing with the consensus about something that is obviousty true, is not what I would call "blinkered", I would call it "not being in denial".

Re 2, I agree, I said so.

 

[inbetween]

There is no chance of sharia law ever being part of the legal system here.

That’s just your Islamaphobia showing. It’s based on nothing but your gut feeling, a bit like the two tier nonsense that I debunked with you the other day.

There are over 50 sharia courts in the UK, they have no legal authority but they do have authority in communities. My niece is a Muslim and married a Muslim man. They had their Nikah ceremony and never registered the marriage so she has no marriage rights. That doesn't matter now but what happens if something goes wrong one day?

If the worse happened and she ever wanted to get a divorce then she'd have to go to a shariah court and follow Islamic rules to grant the divorce. The most notable thing for divorce is the husband must grant it, what if he doesn't? She could then just ignore it given the marriage wasn't ever legal but think of everything that entails and the impact. She could essentially be ostracised within her community.

The government hides behind what you have just said. Yeah it isn't part of the legal system but let's not pretend that it isn't being practiced and doesn't pose a huge problem, especially for women who are especially isolated by Islam. I am not Islamaphobic but I am certainly suspicious of a religion which enforces itself through religious law and clearly with little regard to the actual law.

 

[mexico1970]

There are over 50 sharia courts in the UK, they have no legal authority but they do have authority in communities. My niece is a Muslim and married a Muslim man. They had a Nikkah ceramony and never registered the marriage so she has no marriage rights.

If the worse happened and she ever wanted to get a divorce then she'd have to go to a shariah court and follow Islamic rules to grant the divorce. The most notable thing for divorce is the husband must grant it, what if he doesn't? She could then just ignore it given the marriage wasn't ever legal but think of everything that entails and the impact.

The government hides behind what you have just said. Yeah it isn't part of the legal system but let's not pretend that it isn't being practiced and it poses a huge problem, especially for women who are especially isolated by Islam. I am not Islamaphobic but I am certainly suspicious of a religion and one which enforces itself through religious law.

Yeah, but apart from that?

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

There are over 50 sharia courts in the UK, they have no legal authority but they do have authority in communities. My niece is a Muslim and married a Muslim man. They had their Nikah ceremony and never registered the marriage so she has no marriage rights. That doesn't matter now but what happens if something goes wrong one day?

If the worse happened and she ever wanted to get a divorce then she'd have to go to a shariah court and follow Islamic rules to grant the divorce. The most notable thing for divorce is the husband must grant it, what if he doesn't? She could then just ignore it given the marriage wasn't ever legal but think of everything that entails and the impact.

The government hides behind what you have just said. Yeah it isn't part of the legal system but let's not pretend that it isn't being practiced and it poses a huge problem, especially for women who are especially isolated by Islam. I am not Islamaphobic but I am certainly suspicious of a religion and one which enforces itself through religious law.

The Jewish have their own community courts too.

Each household has its own rules.

It isn’t for me to change a community’s customs. That would have to be done from within that community.

 

[inbetween]

The Jewish have their own community courts too.

Each household has its own rules.

It isn’t for me to change a community’s customs. That would have to be done from within that community.

You're missing the point. It is law in this country that every person is free, free of discrimination and is treated equally. Sharia courts impose restrictions on the equality and freedom of people. If Jewish people have similar courts then yeah they should be looked at too.

I say Islam just because I've seen it with my own eyes. I also know Islam through seeing it through my own eyes in the Middle East. It isn't pretty and it isn't something that we should just accept here as part and parcel of culture.

Culture I can accept, religious domination through law whether actually legal or not is unacceptable.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

There are over 50 sharia courts in the UK, they have no legal authority but they do have authority in communities. My niece is a Muslim and married a Muslim man. They had their Nikah ceremony and never registered the marriage so she has no marriage rights. That doesn't matter now but what happens if something goes wrong one day?

If the worse happened and she ever wanted to get a divorce then she'd have to go to a shariah court and follow Islamic rules to grant the divorce. The most notable thing for divorce is the husband must grant it, what if he doesn't? She could then just ignore it given the marriage wasn't ever legal but think of everything that entails and the impact. She could essentially be ostracised within her community.

The government hides behind what you have just said. Yeah it isn't part of the legal system but let's not pretend that it isn't being practiced and doesn't pose a huge problem, especially for women who are especially isolated by Islam. I am not Islamaphobic but I am certainly suspicious of a religion which enforces itself through religious law and clearly with little regard to the actual law.

If they own the house together already, that's taken care of.

For everything else see constructive trusts. An Islamic marriage probably creates a constructive trust.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

You're missing the point. It is law in this country that every person is free, free of discrimination and is treated equally. Sharia courts impose restrictions on the equality and freedom of people. If Jewish people have similar courts then yeah they should be looked at too.

I say Islam just because I've seen it with my own eyes. I also know Islam through seeing it through my own eyes in the Middle East. It isn't pretty and it isn't something that we should just accept here as part and parcel of culture.

Culture I can accept, religious domination through law whether actually legal or not is unacceptable.

If someone doesn’t believe they are free, they have the opportunity to challenge that under English law.

 

[inbetween]

If someone doesn’t believe they are free, they have the opportunity to challenge that under English law.

This is stupid because you're basically saying that discrimination is acceptable on the understanding that somebody can challenge it if need be. Discrimination however is NEVER acceptable because it is against the law. If sharia courts and underhand imposition of religious law are a proven source of discrimination then they should be outlawed.

Islam just for example is discriminatory against women, it is therefore extremely stupid not to be very cautious towards the behaviour of religious law bodies whether they have any legal standing or not.

There are also minorities too. Gay people in Islamic communities are basically heretics. The fact is they can't exist in such a community so is it acceptable to say in the 21st century well tough that's life?

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

This is stupid because you're basically saying that discrimination is acceptable on the understanding that somebody can challenge it if need be. Discrimination however is NEVER acceptable because it is against the law. If sharia courts and underhand imposition of religious law are a proven source of discrimination then they should be outlawed.

Islam just for example is discriminatory against women, it is therefore extremely stupid not to be very cautious towards the behaviour of religious law bodies whether they have any legal standing or not.

There are also minorities too. Gay people in Islamic communities are basically heretics. The fact is they can't exist in such a community so is it acceptable to say in the 21st century well tough that's life?

That is for the community to do though.

If it was as straight forward as you suggest, any good barrister could prosecute the people who adhere to these customs.

They can’t as they are a religious rite. Should someone in that community believe they are being discriminated against, they have the right to challenge that legally.

 

[Chippy_boy]

This is stupid because you're basically saying that discrimination is acceptable on the understanding that somebody can challenge it if need be. Discrimination however is NEVER acceptable because it is against the law. If sharia courts and underhand imposition of religious law are a proven source of discrimination then they should be outlawed.

Islam just for example is discriminatory against women, it is therefore extremely stupid not to be very cautious towards the behaviour of religious law bodies whether they have any legal standing or not.

There are also minorities too. Gay people in Islamic communities are basically heretics. The fact is they can't exist in such a community so is it acceptable to say in the 21st century well tough that's life?

I have to say this is a great response and far more eloquent and measured than what I was going to post.

 

[Chippy_boy]

That is for the community to do though.

If it was as straight forward as you suggest, any good barrister could prosecute the people who adhere to these customs.

They can’t as they are a religious rite. Should someone in that community believe they are being discriminated against, they have the right to challenge that legally.

Mate, that really is tosh. It really is. Discrimination is wrong, period. And many people in such an environment are not allowed to exercise their rights under English law. They are repressed and such repression is wrong.

For someone who seems to like to debate properly, I think you've misjudged this a bit and find yourself on the wrong side of the argument. Surely you can see that.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Mate, that really is tosh. It really is. Discrimination is wrong, period. And many people in such an environment are not allowed to exercise their rights under English law.

For someone who seems to like to debate properly, I think you've misjudged this a bit and find yourself on the wrong side of the argument. Surely you can see that.

Discrimination is wrong, but it’s obvious that that community don’t see it as discrimination. If they did, they would adapt their ways or use our legal system to force change.

They don’t force it on others.

You don’t agree with their law, so don’t use it.

 

[inbetween]

That is for the community to do though.

If it was as straight forward as you suggest, any good barrister could prosecute the people who adhere to these customs.

They can’t as they are a religious rite. Should someone in that community believe they are being discriminated against, they have the right to challenge that legally.

But what I'm saying is they don't and won't. Homosexuality was decriminalised in 1967, has that stopped people from being homophobic or discriminating against gay people? Islam is especially discriminatory against gay people, should we just somehow accept this because the gay man can go to the police if need be? Of course not, we fight discrimination at every corner and any discriminatory religion based culture should be fought against.

The reality of UK law is no person should experience discrimination full stop. Legislation exists against discrimination and therefore a religious based law with its own court is completely incompatible with the UK. At the moment we only tolerate it because we're too scared to challenge it otherwise UK law would recognise their existence.

The greatest advances in equality and discrimination have actually not come through law, they've come through the wholesale rejection of religion and the fact that most people's values aren't built upon religion anymore. Should we therefore really accept the introduction of the worst aspects of a religion and consider it part and parcel of 'tolerance' ?

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

But what I'm saying is they don't and won't. Homosexuality was decriminalised in 1967, has that stopped people from being homophobic or discriminating against gay people? Islam is especially discriminatory against gay people, should we just somehow accept this because the gay man can go to the police if need be?

The reality of UK law is no person should experience discrimination full stop. Legislation exists against discrimination and therefore a religious based law with its own court is completely incompatible with the UK. At the moment we only tolerate it because we're too scared to challenge it.

The greatest advances in equality and discrimination have actually not come through law, they've come through the wholesale rejection of religion and the fact that most people's values aren't built upon religion anymore. Should we therefore really accept the introduction of the worst aspects of a religion and consider it part and parcel of 'tolerance' ?

It’s a lot of words basically saying you don’t like Islam.

I’m not fond of any religion, but I don’t have the right to stop people practising what they believe in.

Short of trying to “reeducate” all religious people into becoming non-religious, I’m not sure what else can be done.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Discrimination is wrong, but it’s obvious that that community don’t see it as discrimination. If they did, they would adapt their ways or use our legal system to force change.

They don’t force it on others.

You don’t agree with their law, so don’t use it.

This is quite a revealing exchange indeed.

There is one law here in the UK mate, which MUST be applied equally. We cannot have a situation where some faction decides that they don't agree with it and it doesn't apply to them. This is at the nub of what all the sociai unrest is about. Peoples' perceived erosion of British values and unwillingness of certain factions to adapt to our British culture and ways of life.

 

[Scottyboi]

But what I'm saying is they don't and won't. Homosexuality was decriminalised in 1967, has that stopped people from being homophobic or discriminating against gay people? Islam is especially discriminatory against gay people, should we just somehow accept this because the gay man can go to the police if need be? Of course not, we fight discrimination at every corner and any discriminatory religion based culture should be fought against.

The reality of UK law is no person should experience discrimination full stop. Legislation exists against discrimination and therefore a religious based law with its own court is completely incompatible with the UK. At the moment we only tolerate it because we're too scared to challenge it otherwise UK law would recognise their existence.

The greatest advances in equality and discrimination have actually not come through law, they've come through the wholesale rejection of religion and the fact that most people's values aren't built upon religion anymore. Should we therefore really accept the introduction of the worst aspects of a religion and consider it part and parcel of 'tolerance' ?

I wish Islam in the UK went through the same change as Christianity and goes on the backburner. Cba with devout religious nutjobs who think women should be second class citizens and that their religion cannot be the subject of comedy, it's all very serious.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

This is quite a revealing exchange indeed.

There is one law here in the UK mate, which MUST be applied equally. We cannot have a situation where some faction decides that they don't agree with it and it doesn't apply to them. This is at the nub of what all the sociai unrest is about. Peoples' perceived erosion of British values and unwillingness of certain factions to adapt to our British culture and ways of life.

Kind of. Golf clubs have rules, households have rules, religions have rules.

If you replace law with rules and hopefully you’ll see my point of view a bit more.

These are people adhering to rules in their communities. They aren’t forcing it on others.

 

[inbetween]

It’s a lot of words basically saying you don’t like Islam.

I’m not fond of any religion, but I don’t have the right to stop people practising what they believe in.

Short of trying to “reeducate” all religious people into becoming non-religious, I’m not sure what else can be done.

Yes I don't like Islam, I'm more than happy to go on record on that but I don't like christianity either, I actually don't like any religion. I'd question the logic of anybody who likes religion given more people have been killed, discriminated and subjugated in the name of religion than anything else ever in human history. The UK has achieved more on anti-discrimination thanks to rejecting religion and not by tolerating it.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't practice their religion but the problem with Islam especially (and others) is that it is a law based religion. It isn't good enough to simply be Muslim as it is with christianity, if you're Muslim then you have to follow every rule in the book or else there are consequences. Those consequences are enforced with force in Muslim countries and we just need to be very careful that this doesn't happen within UK communities.

I can't believe that we have to talk about this in the 21st century.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Yes I don't like Islam, I'm more than happy to go on record on that but I don't like christianity either, I actually don't like any religion. I'd question the logic of anybody who likes religion given more people have been killed, discriminated and subjugated in the name of religion than anything else ever in human history.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't practice their religion but the problem with Islam especially (and others) is that it is a law based religion. It isn't good enough to simply be Muslim as it is with christianity, if you're Muslim then you have to follow every rule in the book or else there are consequences. Those consequences are enfored with force within Muslim countries and we just need to be very careful that this doesn't happen within UK communities.

I can't believe we have to talk about this in the 21st century and this is all in the name of tolerance which is ridiculously ironic.

Are you advocating making being Muslim illegal?

 

[Chippy_boy]

Kind of. Golf clubs have rules, households have rules, religions have rules.

If you replace law with rules and hopefully you’ll see my point of view a bit more.

These are people adhering to rules in their communities. They aren’t forcing it on others.

No, you've shifted your point, or worded the original one so badly that the meaning was lost.

Some things are illegal under the laws of England and Wales and if these laws are broken by certain factions, then that is still illegal and the perpertraitors should be liable to prosecution. Are we agreed on that?

If so, then whether a community happens to deem it OK or not OK is irrelevant. It is not up to a community to decide if they'd like to confirm to a particular law or not.