The Labour Government

[threespires]

US forces in UK.
View attachment 147012

So a lot but less than a tenth of the UK armed forces.

 

[Scottyboi]

I think costs now ensure collaboration as no fucker can afford to design a fighter jet alone, the usual exceptions

Yep the cost of trying to improve fighter jets is obscene, especially when this current war hasn't featured them very much. Won't be too long before pilots aren't even required.

 

[blueinsa]

Yep the cost of trying to improve fighter jets is obscene, especially when this current war hasn't featured them very much. Won't be too long before pilots aren't even required.

Agreed.

The human pilot and his body are now the restricting factor in design.

Reapers and drones are cheaper and incredibly effective.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

'

There are more American troops in the UK than there are in the UK armed forces

I very much suspect that is rubbish.

Just over 12,000 US military personnel in the UK according to latest figures.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

The number of US military in the UK has reduced over the past few decades. The problem is that so has the UK’s capability.

In terms of ready to go stuff, I would think that the largest US airbase in the UK is probably comparable to what the entire RAF has based in the UK.

I would guess it would take far longer than a decade to replace what the US has in the UK, if we ever could.

I doubt that, having been to Mildenhall, their largest base. Sorry it's Lakenheath next door. 75 fighters and visiting bombers so the RAF is bigger.

 

[Vic]

That's the point of the deterrent as Ukraine had the strength to inflict serious damage on Moscow the invasion would have been less likely.

You may not have read the 1980s argument for a winnable nuclear war.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/114840

Plus history - the West didn't want Ukraine to retain nuclear weapons (probably rather risk a Russian invasion than risk a nuclear conflict). Plus Article 4 of the agreement disbanding the USSR: "Agreement on joint measures with respect to nuclear weapons: Pending the complete elimination of nuclear weapons from the territories, of the Republic of Belarus and Ukraine, the decision regarding the need to use such weapons shall be taken with the consent of the Heads of the participating States of the Agreement by the President of the RSFSR on the basis of procedures drawn up jointly by the participating States." https://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/?pdf=CDL(1994)054-e p.152

(They weren't Ukrainian weapons; they were effectively Russian weapons in what became Ukrainian territory.)

 

[ganganvince]

That's 10 years old.

There are around 10k US military currently in the UK vs UK military of around 180k

That is a Screen shot numbers updated this month alternative source below

 

[Hertzblue]

And I’d swing social Democrat a la Scandinavia economically. Education is paramount to enriching a population. We’re getting left behind by countries that need to better their children to improve their lives.

Immigration will never be solved, it’s just a perpetual debating point, whoever is in govenrment.

Voters going in to the next election wanting immigration solved will be”betrayed” by any government that gets voted in.

Those so sensible Scandinavian Social Democrats ! They are in many ways a model we could learn a lot from . Extremely high levels of taxation admittedly but greater social provision and less disparity in wealth distribution that does lead their populace to consistently report themselves as amongst the “ Happiest” in the world. There does seem something in it!

However one topic they are certainly not happy about is immigration. Given your admiration for their economic model perhaps you should consider what they are doing to resolve their immigration issues , given you see this as insurmountable problem.

Sweden is only coming to terms with the disastrous impact its generous immigration policies have had on crime and social cohesion but Denmark has for some time now taken a hard line on immigration and achieved remarkable progress in reducing the numbers. The Government has a stated aim to reduce asylum applications to Zero and last year they were down to a little over 2,000 with total net migration down to less than 30,000. Of course a much smaller country than the UK but nonetheless they are determinedly going about dealing with the issue. It is not for me to detail here how they have gone about it and I dare say you may find some of policies enacted by the Danish government disagreeable. But consider this…

The target of Zero Asylum applications and the enactment of policies to deter migrants to Denmark has not been the work of some Far right Nationalist but by a Centre left, Ex Trade unionist Social democrat Prime Minister. The starting point for which has been to just admit an obvious truth….


Once accepting that truth they admitted to themselves and the electorate another truth …. That the Danish welfare system would be unsustainable as a universal entitlement under the strain of immigration.
Following that logic their immigration policies have their reference point of protecting their Welfare state and in doing so they are putting the Danish people first!

Is that unreasonable ? In this country, is it not the Lower classes that have paid the greatest price for Globalisation and immigration ? Is our Welfare state not being tested to destruction ? The answer is Yes to both.

Now, if any of the UK political parties were honest enough to say that they disagreed with that and their policy was for open borders , that a consequence of that would be that in all likelihood housing would be in short supply , we would no longer be able to offer universal NHS medical cover and would have to cut back social protection etc, then if that is what a majority voted for I would accept that . But that would never get a majority , because that is not what the people of this country want . Our politicians know that so for the best part of 30 years they have been gaslighting us on immigration.

So as to your claim that “ Immigration will never be solved, it’s just a perpetual debating point, whoever is in government “ Just more gaslighting ! Of course it can be solved, it just requires some honesty and political will . But most of all some courage . Some courage to face up to doing some unpleasant things, but things that must be done to preserve our Welfare state and restore the trust of the Lower classes of our country that their politicians care about them.

The politics of the Western word is currently dominated by immigration , the left has already lost the war , they just haven’t yet accepted defeat ,the open borders, refugees welcome brigade are in full retreat . They may win some battles along the way but it is only a matter of time. Already Meloni with the tacit approval of the EU is paying the Libyans millions of Euros to turn back migrants before they can cross to Italy, horrendous things are happening to those people but the EU choose to look away and keep it off the radar because they know their populace are done with mass immigration.

The left have no where to go with this, you just cannot make the numbers add up. The potential numbers of people wanting to move from Africa and the Middle East are overwhelming and simply incompatible with the provision of a Welfare state as we know it.

When will a British Left wing politician just do as Frederiksen has done in Denmark and confront the truth and be honest with the British people and the World at large.

That goes for you to . History will be against you . No use being the King Canute of the BlueMoon political forum standing against the tide of popular anti immigration sentiment . It is of no use being a stooge for left wing progressives. If you really care about working people, stand for their interest , put them first. They want immigration resolved and it can be. It starts by acknowledging their pain and their concerns.

It is the only way the Labour Party can re-connect with its roots , its core support, otherwise it will be lost.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Those so sensible Scandinavian Social Democrats ! They are in many ways a model we could learn a lot from . Extremely high levels of taxation admittedly but greater social provision and less disparity in wealth distribution that does lead their populace to consistently report themselves as amongst the “ Happiest” in the world. There does seem something in it!

However one topic they are certainly not happy about is immigration. Given your admiration for their economic model perhaps you should consider what they are doing to resolve their immigration issues , given you see this as insurmountable problem.

Sweden is only coming to terms with the disastrous impact its generous immigration policies have had on crime and social cohesion but Denmark has for some time now taken a hard line on immigration and achieved remarkable progress in reducing the numbers. The Government has a stated aim to reduce asylum applications to Zero and last year they were down to a little over 2,000 with total net migration down to less than 30,000. Of course a much smaller country than the UK but nonetheless they are determinedly going about dealing with the issue. It is not for me to detail here how they have gone about it and I dare say you may find some of policies enacted by the Danish government disagreeable. But consider this…

The target of Zero Asylum applications and the enactment of policies to deter migrants to Denmark has not been the work of some Far right Nationalist but by a Centre left, Ex Trade unionist Social democrat Prime Minister. The starting point for which has been to just admit an obvious truth….

View attachment 147080
Once accepting that truth they admitted to themselves and the electorate another truth …. That the Danish welfare system would be unsustainable as a universal entitlement under the strain of immigration.
Following that logic their immigration policies have their reference point of protecting their Welfare state and in doing so they are putting the Danish people first!

Is that unreasonable ? In this country, is it not the Lower classes that have paid the greatest price for Globalisation and immigration ? Is our Welfare state not being tested to destruction ? The answer is Yes to both.

Now, if any of the UK political parties were honest enough to say that they disagreed with that and their policy was for open borders , that a consequence of that would be that in all likelihood housing would be in short supply , we would no longer be able to offer universal NHS medical cover and would have to cut back social protection etc, then if that is what a majority voted for I would accept that . But that would never get a majority , because that is not what the people of this country want . Our politicians know that so for the best part of 30 years they have been gaslighting us on immigration.

So as to your claim that “ Immigration will never be solved, it’s just a perpetual debating point, whoever is in government “ Just more gaslighting ! Of course it can be solved, it just requires some honesty and political will . But most of all some courage . Some courage to face up to doing some unpleasant things, but things that must be done to preserve our Welfare state and restore the trust of the Lower classes of our country that their politicians care about them.

The politics of the Western word is currently dominated by immigration , the left has already lost the war , they just haven’t yet accepted defeat ,the open borders, refugees welcome brigade are in full retreat . They may win some battles along the way but it is only a matter of time. Already Meloni with the tacit approval of the EU is paying the Libyans millions of Euros to turn back migrants before they can cross to Italy, horrendous things are happening to those people but the EU choose to look away and keep it off the radar because they know their populace are done with mass immigration.

The left have no where to go with this, you just cannot make the numbers add up. The potential numbers of people wanting to move from Africa and the Middle East are overwhelming and simply incompatible with the provision of a Welfare state as we know it.

When will a British Left wing politician just do as Frederiksen has done in Denmark and confront the truth and be honest with the British people and the World at large.

That goes for you to . History will be against you . No use being the King Canute of the BlueMoon political forum standing against the tide of popular anti immigration sentiment . It is of no use being a stooge for left wing progressives. If you really care about working people, stand for their interest , put them first. They want immigration resolved and it can be. It starts by acknowledging their pain and their concerns.

It is the only way the Labour Party can re-connect with its roots , its core support, otherwise it will be lost.

I’ll have to read that in the morning. Having skim read it, it seems low in evidence and high in hyperbole.

Immigration is the hot topic. One that gets people riled up to the max and exploited to encourage division.

It’s quite telling to me that none of these people pushing zero tolerance on immigration have any workable policies that are implementable.

Until then, I’ll view immigration as a constant dog whistle to allow countries not to invest in their infrastructure.

If it is unsolvable and the inevitable war between the immigrants and the frothers, I’ll be in the Winchester having a nice pint of IPA until you’ve all got it out of your systems.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Those so sensible Scandinavian Social Democrats ! They are in many ways a model we could learn a lot from . Extremely high levels of taxation admittedly but greater social provision and less disparity in wealth distribution that does lead their populace to consistently report themselves as amongst the “ Happiest” in the world. There does seem something in it!

However one topic they are certainly not happy about is immigration. Given your admiration for their economic model perhaps you should consider what they are doing to resolve their immigration issues , given you see this as insurmountable problem.

Sweden is only coming to terms with the disastrous impact its generous immigration policies have had on crime and social cohesion but Denmark has for some time now taken a hard line on immigration and achieved remarkable progress in reducing the numbers. The Government has a stated aim to reduce asylum applications to Zero and last year they were down to a little over 2,000 with total net migration down to less than 30,000. Of course a much smaller country than the UK but nonetheless they are determinedly going about dealing with the issue. It is not for me to detail here how they have gone about it and I dare say you may find some of policies enacted by the Danish government disagreeable. But consider this…

The target of Zero Asylum applications and the enactment of policies to deter migrants to Denmark has not been the work of some Far right Nationalist but by a Centre left, Ex Trade unionist Social democrat Prime Minister. The starting point for which has been to just admit an obvious truth….

View attachment 147080
Once accepting that truth they admitted to themselves and the electorate another truth …. That the Danish welfare system would be unsustainable as a universal entitlement under the strain of immigration.
Following that logic their immigration policies have their reference point of protecting their Welfare state and in doing so they are putting the Danish people first!

Is that unreasonable ? In this country, is it not the Lower classes that have paid the greatest price for Globalisation and immigration ? Is our Welfare state not being tested to destruction ? The answer is Yes to both.

Now, if any of the UK political parties were honest enough to say that they disagreed with that and their policy was for open borders , that a consequence of that would be that in all likelihood housing would be in short supply , we would no longer be able to offer universal NHS medical cover and would have to cut back social protection etc, then if that is what a majority voted for I would accept that . But that would never get a majority , because that is not what the people of this country want . Our politicians know that so for the best part of 30 years they have been gaslighting us on immigration.

So as to your claim that “ Immigration will never be solved, it’s just a perpetual debating point, whoever is in government “ Just more gaslighting ! Of course it can be solved, it just requires some honesty and political will . But most of all some courage . Some courage to face up to doing some unpleasant things, but things that must be done to preserve our Welfare state and restore the trust of the Lower classes of our country that their politicians care about them.

The politics of the Western word is currently dominated by immigration , the left has already lost the war , they just haven’t yet accepted defeat ,the open borders, refugees welcome brigade are in full retreat . They may win some battles along the way but it is only a matter of time. Already Meloni with the tacit approval of the EU is paying the Libyans millions of Euros to turn back migrants before they can cross to Italy, horrendous things are happening to those people but the EU choose to look away and keep it off the radar because they know their populace are done with mass immigration.

The left have no where to go with this, you just cannot make the numbers add up. The potential numbers of people wanting to move from Africa and the Middle East are overwhelming and simply incompatible with the provision of a Welfare state as we know it.

When will a British Left wing politician just do as Frederiksen has done in Denmark and confront the truth and be honest with the British people and the World at large.

That goes for you to . History will be against you . No use being the King Canute of the BlueMoon political forum standing against the tide of popular anti immigration sentiment . It is of no use being a stooge for left wing progressives. If you really care about working people, stand for their interest , put them first. They want immigration resolved and it can be. It starts by acknowledging their pain and their concerns.

It is the only way the Labour Party can re-connect with its roots , its core support, otherwise it will be lost.

Excellent post. The lack of courage and honesty by our politicians you describe is opening the door to resentment and the far right.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Having seen the troll’s response, I’m happy with my response.

Guess mentioning the far right is acceptable when trying to appease it.

 

[ROCKET80]

Those so sensible Scandinavian Social Democrats ! They are in many ways a model we could learn a lot from . Extremely high levels of taxation admittedly but greater social provision and less disparity in wealth distribution that does lead their populace to consistently report themselves as amongst the “ Happiest” in the world. There does seem something in it!

However one topic they are certainly not happy about is immigration. Given your admiration for their economic model perhaps you should consider what they are doing to resolve their immigration issues , given you see this as insurmountable problem.

Sweden is only coming to terms with the disastrous impact its generous immigration policies have had on crime and social cohesion but Denmark has for some time now taken a hard line on immigration and achieved remarkable progress in reducing the numbers. The Government has a stated aim to reduce asylum applications to Zero and last year they were down to a little over 2,000 with total net migration down to less than 30,000. Of course a much smaller country than the UK but nonetheless they are determinedly going about dealing with the issue. It is not for me to detail here how they have gone about it and I dare say you may find some of policies enacted by the Danish government disagreeable. But consider this…

The target of Zero Asylum applications and the enactment of policies to deter migrants to Denmark has not been the work of some Far right Nationalist but by a Centre left, Ex Trade unionist Social democrat Prime Minister. The starting point for which has been to just admit an obvious truth….

View attachment 147080
Once accepting that truth they admitted to themselves and the electorate another truth …. That the Danish welfare system would be unsustainable as a universal entitlement under the strain of immigration.
Following that logic their immigration policies have their reference point of protecting their Welfare state and in doing so they are putting the Danish people first!

Is that unreasonable ? In this country, is it not the Lower classes that have paid the greatest price for Globalisation and immigration ? Is our Welfare state not being tested to destruction ? The answer is Yes to both.

Now, if any of the UK political parties were honest enough to say that they disagreed with that and their policy was for open borders , that a consequence of that would be that in all likelihood housing would be in short supply , we would no longer be able to offer universal NHS medical cover and would have to cut back social protection etc, then if that is what a majority voted for I would accept that . But that would never get a majority , because that is not what the people of this country want . Our politicians know that so for the best part of 30 years they have been gaslighting us on immigration.

So as to your claim that “ Immigration will never be solved, it’s just a perpetual debating point, whoever is in government “ Just more gaslighting ! Of course it can be solved, it just requires some honesty and political will . But most of all some courage . Some courage to face up to doing some unpleasant things, but things that must be done to preserve our Welfare state and restore the trust of the Lower classes of our country that their politicians care about them.

The politics of the Western word is currently dominated by immigration , the left has already lost the war , they just haven’t yet accepted defeat ,the open borders, refugees welcome brigade are in full retreat . They may win some battles along the way but it is only a matter of time. Already Meloni with the tacit approval of the EU is paying the Libyans millions of Euros to turn back migrants before they can cross to Italy, horrendous things are happening to those people but the EU choose to look away and keep it off the radar because they know their populace are done with mass immigration.

The left have no where to go with this, you just cannot make the numbers add up. The potential numbers of people wanting to move from Africa and the Middle East are overwhelming and simply incompatible with the provision of a Welfare state as we know it.

When will a British Left wing politician just do as Frederiksen has done in Denmark and confront the truth and be honest with the British people and the World at large.

That goes for you to . History will be against you . No use being the King Canute of the BlueMoon political forum standing against the tide of popular anti immigration sentiment . It is of no use being a stooge for left wing progressives. If you really care about working people, stand for their interest , put them first. They want immigration resolved and it can be. It starts by acknowledging their pain and their concerns.

It is the only way the Labour Party can re-connect with its roots , its core support, otherwise it will be lost.

Shifting the UK to the Danish model would require fundamental changes in taxation, public spending, workforce participation, and immigration policy.

Denmark sustains its low birth rate and strict immigration stance through high taxes, which fund world-class public services that helps to ensure high workforce participation that reduces reliance on population growth for economic stability.

Their model is built on progressive taxation, with higher personal and corporate tax rates which sustain its excellent welfare state. The UK, with its lower tax burden, would need significant fiscal reform to improve public services and reduce inequality. Their policies, such as generous parental leave, subsidised childcare, and strong employee protections, keep more people in work, particularly women, the UK would need to expand affordable childcare and workplace flexibility to come close to replicating this.

Having said that, Denmark's model is only sustainable in the short to medium term. With low birth rates and an aging population, even with high taxes and efficiencies they will struggle to maintain the current level of public services in the long run. They will eventually need more immigration or drastic new economic reforms to keep the model viable.

The question is would the British electorate vote for higher taxes and a more interventionist state to achieve Danish-style social security? History tells us no.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Shifting the UK to the Danish model would require fundamental changes in taxation, public spending, workforce participation, and immigration policy.

Denmark sustains its low birth rate and strict immigration stance through high taxes, which fund world-class public services that helps to ensure high workforce participation that reduces reliance on population growth for economic stability.

Their model is built on progressive taxation, with higher personal and corporate tax rates which sustain its excellent welfare state. The UK, with its lower tax burden, would need significant fiscal reform to improve public services and reduce inequality. Their policies, such as generous parental leave, subsidised childcare, and strong employee protections, keep more people in work, particularly women, the UK would need to expand affordable childcare and workplace flexibility to come close to replicating this.

Having said that, Denmark's model is only sustainable in the short to medium term. With low birth rates and an aging population, even with high taxes and efficiencies they will struggle to maintain the current level of public services in the long run. They will eventually need more immigration or drastic new economic reforms to keep the model viable.

The question is would the British electorate vote for higher taxes and a more interventionist state to achieve Danish-style social security? History tells us no.

I think the Danish model is probably only a starting point for discussion. Re taxes we do need to do something about the distribution of wealth - the Scandinavian high tax economies seem to achieve this more effectively than us.
Re immigration all western nations face the ageing population conundrum (which can't support the high taxation/productivity economy we nay need). Therefore we need immigration and quite a lot of it, but there needs to be quality as well as quantity to be a net gain economically. If our mainstream politicians can square this circle then the far right might just vanish back to the insignificant minority they normally are.

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

Having said that, Denmark's model is only sustainable in the short to medium term. With low birth rates and an aging population, even with high taxes and efficiencies they will struggle to maintain the current level of public services in the long run. They will eventually need more immigration or drastic new economic reforms to keep the model viable.

I keep hearing that, but even with millions/ huge numbers of people coming to the Uk and other countries we still can’t replace low birth rates, an ageing population or apparently fill all the vacant job roles. This is for pretty much every country in the world.

The people being brought in also end up not having kids, so we then need to bring in people to look after them - it’s a never ending cycle.

Maybe we just have to accept populations will decrease and we can’t carry on with the same model.

 

[Don Karleone]

Difficult decisions update.

 

[metalblue]

Bit of a silly comparison to say 2m more appointments than when folk were on strike but waiting lists are down (which was actually their pledge) so long may the trend continue.

Keir Starmer: Pledge of two million extra NHS appointments met

Sir Keir Starmer says the figure is a "shot in the arm", but "the job isn't done" to bring down waiting lists.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Bournemouth Blue]

What pisses me off, whatever your politics, is that changes to NHS and care “need to do it well, rather than do it quickly”, but it seems that doesn’t apply to the rush to net zero. It makes no sense to rush to solar and wind power, electric vehicles etc until we have the infrastructure in place to do it properly.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

Bit of a silly comparison to say 2m more appointments than when folk were on strike but waiting lists are down (which was actually their pledge) so long may the trend continue.

Keir Starmer: Pledge of two million extra NHS appointments met

Sir Keir Starmer says the figure is a "shot in the arm", but "the job isn't done" to bring down waiting lists.

www.bbc.co.uk

On the one hand, yeah it's a bollocks comparison. On the other hand, the strikes were the fault of the previous government, so also partly not bollocks.

 

[ROCKET80]

I keep hearing that, but even with millions/ huge numbers of people coming to the Uk and other countries we still can’t replace low birth rates, an ageing population or apparently fill all the vacant job roles. This is for pretty much every country in the world.

The people being brought in also end up not having kids, so we then need to bring in people to look after them - it’s a never ending cycle.

Maybe we just have to accept populations will decrease and we can’t carry on with the same model.

You make a good point about the unsustainability of the current model.

The issue is that capitalism, in its current form, isn't designed for stability, it's built on perpetual growth, which inevitably leads to crisis when that growth stalls. Governments and corporations rely on an ever expanding workforce to prop up the system, but at the same time exploit workers to maximise profits, making it harder for people to afford to have families.

The irony is that the wealthiest in society could easily be taxed more to fund public services, infrastructure, and policies that actually support sustainable communities. But the political system is rigged to ensure that never happens.

The mainstream media is largely owned by the ultra wealthy and they like nothing more than to keep people misinformed and distracted, pitting them against immigrants, the unemployed, or other vulnerable groups instead of questioning why a handful of billionaires hoard obscene amounts of wealth while hospitals crumble and wages stagnate.

The reality is that the rich are never satisfied. No matter how much they have, they will always push for more whether it be lower taxes, deregulation, or cheaper labour, all whilst selling the lie that there's simply not enough money to properly fund social services. But when banks collapse or billionaires want subsidies, suddenly there’s endless cash available.

We do need to accept that populations will decline. But instead of desperately clinging to an outdated economic system that treats people as mere cogs in a machine, we should be rethinking what a sustainable society looks like. One that prioritises well-being over infinite growth and that actually works for the majority and not just a privileged few.

 

[hilts]

You make a good point about the unsustainability of the current model.

The issue is that capitalism, in its current form, isn't designed for stability, it's built on perpetual growth, which inevitably leads to crisis when that growth stalls. Governments and corporations rely on an ever expanding workforce to prop up the system, but at the same time exploit workers to maximise profits, making it harder for people to afford to have families.

The irony is that the wealthiest in society could easily be taxed more to fund public services, infrastructure, and policies that actually support sustainable communities. But the political system is rigged to ensure that never happens.

The mainstream media is largely owned by the ultra wealthy and they like nothing more than to keep people misinformed and distracted, pitting them against immigrants, the unemployed, or other vulnerable groups instead of questioning why a handful of billionaires hoard obscene amounts of wealth while hospitals crumble and wages stagnate.

The reality is that the rich are never satisfied. No matter how much they have, they will always push for more whether it be lower taxes, deregulation, or cheaper labour, all whilst selling the lie that there's simply not enough money to properly fund social services. But when banks collapse or billionaires want subsidies, suddenly there’s endless cash available.

We do need to accept that populations will decline. But instead of desperately clinging to an outdated economic system that treats people as mere cogs in a machine, we should be rethinking what a sustainable society looks like. One that prioritises well-being over infinite growth and that actually works for the majority and not just a privileged few.

Nail

Head

Hit