The Labour Government

Throwing Labour a bone here, I also think that the predicament we find ourselves in, is as challenging - if not more so - as it has ever been.

We have unsustainable levels of debt already; record high taxes which would likely hinder the economy not help it if raised further; an underperforming and under funded NHS; workers who feel they haven't had adequate pay increases for 10 years, on the brink of strikes; greater demands for defence spending; and immigration system out of control; stubborn inflation and resultingly high interest rates; pitiful/no growth; global headwinds with Presidents of both Russia and the US who are bonkers; a welfare bill that's completely unsustainable; and fewer people of working age, working than not.

It's completely fucked. I don't want to detract from this by getting into a "who's fault is that debate". As a conservative, even I blame to Tories in large part.

But we are where we are and god only knows what we can do to get out of this mess. I confess I am stumped. We can't cut taxes without risking a Truss style collapse; We can't borrow more; We can't raise taxes without spiralling down further, depressing growth even more.

As Sully said a few moments before impact: "Have you got any ideas"?
 
Throwing Labour a bone here, I also think that the predicament we find ourselves in, is as challenging - if not more so - as it has ever been.

We have unsustainable levels of debt already; record high taxes which would likely hinder the economy not help it if raised further; an underperforming and under funded NHS; workers who feel they haven't had adequate pay increases for 10 years, on the brink of strikes; greater demands for defence spending; and immigration system out of control; stubborn inflation and resultingly high interest rates; pitiful/no growth; global headwinds with Presidents of both Russia and the US who are bonkers; a welfare bill that's completely unsustainable; and fewer people of working age, working than not.

It's completely fucked. I don't want to detract from this by getting into a "who's fault is that debate". As a conservative, even I blame to Tories in large part.

But we are where we are and god only knows what we can do to get out of this mess. I confess I am stumped. We can't cut taxes without risking a Truss style collapse; We can't borrow more; We can't raise taxes without spiralling down further, depressing growth even more.

As Sully said a few moments before impact: "Have you got any ideas"?
Have you been hacked?
 
The fact that politicians can be exposed and called out is for me beneficial, else they keep on lying and burying bad news which cannot be good - can it?

Politics has always been messy, but it used to be quite a big thing when a politician got caught in a lie. It's only a couple of decades since every political ad was scrutinised, and there would be pushback if it was considered not 100% accurate.

Now, many politicians lie constantly, and the hyper-partisanship that you get with social media allows them to blame the other side without consequence.

Social media has many benefits for politics, but sadly they're far, far outweighed by the ease of which lies spread, and the echo chambers that so many live in.
 
Throwing Labour a bone here, I also think that the predicament we find ourselves in, is as challenging - if not more so - as it has ever been.

We have unsustainable levels of debt already; record high taxes which would likely hinder the economy not help it if raised further; an underperforming and under funded NHS; workers who feel they haven't had adequate pay increases for 10 years, on the brink of strikes; greater demands for defence spending; and immigration system out of control; stubborn inflation and resultingly high interest rates; pitiful/no growth; global headwinds with Presidents of both Russia and the US who are bonkers; a welfare bill that's completely unsustainable; and fewer people of working age, working than not.

It's completely fucked. I don't want to detract from this by getting into a "who's fault is that debate". As a conservative, even I blame to Tories in large part.

But we are where we are and god only knows what we can do to get out of this mess. I confess I am stumped. We can't cut taxes without risking a Truss style collapse; We can't borrow more; We can't raise taxes without spiralling down further, depressing growth even more.

As Sully said a few moments before impact: "Have you got any ideas"?
Succinct and precise.

To get out of this some one / people are going to have to take the hit. It's as simple as that.

The extremely rich people (around the globe) could forego much of their wealth and benefits without noticing, but they won't.

The poorer people cannot carry the load any longer.

Without poorer people the rich people wouldn't exist.
 
Succinct and precise.

To get out of this some one / people are going to have to take the hit. It's as simple as that.

The extremely rich people (around the globe) could forego much of their wealth and benefits without noticing, but they won't.

The poorer people cannot carry the load any longer.

Without poorer people the rich people wouldn't exist.
Honestly I think it's the middle earners. I don't think it's remotely feasible for people on say £50k a year to just keep saying "the rich can pay".

I also think we are going to have to get rid of a lot of things we'd rather not get rid of. Like benefits for some people, NHS treatments for others. Expensive drugs. My sister has recently been the beneficiary of some pioneering new treatment that's costs £500,000 yes £500,000. The NHS cannot afford such things.
 
Throwing Labour a bone here, I also think that the predicament we find ourselves in, is as challenging - if not more so - as it has ever been.

We have unsustainable levels of debt already; record high taxes which would likely hinder the economy not help it if raised further; an underperforming and under funded NHS; workers who feel they haven't had adequate pay increases for 10 years, on the brink of strikes; greater demands for defence spending; and immigration system out of control; stubborn inflation and resultingly high interest rates; pitiful/no growth; global headwinds with Presidents of both Russia and the US who are bonkers; a welfare bill that's completely unsustainable; and fewer people of working age, working than not.

It's completely fucked. I don't want to detract from this by getting into a "who's fault is that debate". As a conservative, even I blame to Tories in large part.

But we are where we are and god only knows what we can do to get out of this mess. I confess I am stumped. We can't cut taxes without risking a Truss style collapse; We can't borrow more; We can't raise taxes without spiralling down further, depressing growth even more.

As Sully said a few moments before impact: "Have you got any ideas"?
How would a successful business try and get out of it? Once the country isn’t run by people with a background in politics and rather people with some level of business acumen we might stand a chance.

If 1% of your customer base generated 30% of your income (that’s just income tax, but they’ll be disproportionately higher on spending taxes & property/wealth taxes) then you wouldn’t try to isolate them. It’s a tough balance but we’ve got it wrong - more of the top 1% are leaving than ever before.

You’d also look at genuine operational efficiency of the state owned cost drivers, health, education & welfare is 50% of the UK budget. Made only worse by the current state of affairs at our borders and the awful wastage across the UK Govt supply chain.

There is no magic wand, there is no perfect solution, but right now both parties seem unsurprisingly completely inadequate to be running a £1.3 trillion cost base & £0.9 trillion revenue base; evidenced by the massive gap between the two. Oh, and debt repayments only explains £0.1 of that gap.

If it was being run like a business, at that scale, you’d cherry pick some of the best CEO & C-suite executives around, and instead we have a bunch of amateurs who’ve been trained how to speak to Media.
 
How would a successful business try and get out of it? Once the country isn’t run by people with a background in politics and rather people with some level of business acumen we might stand a chance.

If 1% of your customer base generated 30% of your income (that’s just income tax, but they’ll be disproportionately higher on spending taxes & property/wealth taxes) then you wouldn’t try to isolate them. It’s a tough balance but we’ve got it wrong - more of the top 1% are leaving than ever before.

You’d also look at genuine operational efficiency of the state owned cost drivers, health, education & welfare is 50% of the UK budget. Made only worse but the current state of affairs at our borders and the awful wastage across the UK Govt supply chain.

There is no magic wand, there is no perfect solution, but right now both parties seem unsurprisingly completely inadequate to be running a £1.3 trillion cost base & £0.9 trillion revenue base; evidenced by the massive gap between the two. Oh, and debt repayments only explains £0.1 of that gap.

If it was being run like a business, at that scale, you’d cherry pick some of the best CEO & C-suite executives around.
Great post!
 
Succinct and precise.

To get out of this some one / people are going to have to take the hit. It's as simple as that.

The extremely rich people (around the globe) could forego much of their wealth and benefits without noticing, but they won't.

The poorer people cannot carry the load any longer.

Without poorer people the rich people wouldn't exist.
So anyone other than you? It's only a couple of weeks ago you said you didn't want to pay more tax because some of it might go towards migrants. Well general taxation doesn't work like that.

I'm happy to pay some more on VAT (on items over £200 to protect the poorest) or income tax-are you?

An answer for a change would be a start.
 
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How would a successful business try and get out of it? Once the country isn’t run by people with a background in politics and rather people with some level of business acumen we might stand a chance.

If 1% of your customer base generated 30% of your income (that’s just income tax, but they’ll be disproportionately higher on spending taxes & property/wealth taxes) then you wouldn’t try to isolate them. It’s a tough balance but we’ve got it wrong - more of the top 1% are leaving than ever before.

You’d also look at genuine operational efficiency of the state owned cost drivers, health, education & welfare is 50% of the UK budget. Made only worse by the current state of affairs at our borders and the awful wastage across the UK Govt supply chain.

There is no magic wand, there is no perfect solution, but right now both parties seem unsurprisingly completely inadequate to be running a £1.3 trillion cost base & £0.9 trillion revenue base; evidenced by the massive gap between the two. Oh, and debt repayments only explains £0.1 of that gap.

If it was being run like a business, at that scale, you’d cherry pick some of the best CEO & C-suite executives around, and instead we have a bunch of amateurs who’ve been trained how to speak to Media.
If you were a business, you’d segment your target market and cut costs. Which would mean stopping catering for the low value customers (in this scenario, the poorer off).

A government can not do this - they simply can’t cut off the poor, in a functioning society.

There are also many loss industries in running a government; ie health and defence. They don’t generate any profit (or revenue!)

This is why this argument to run a country like a business, or bring the best business people in to run it, is flawed.
 
Succinct and precise.

To get out of this some one / people are going to have to take the hit. It's as simple as that.

The extremely rich people (around the globe) could forego much of their wealth and benefits without noticing, but they won't.

The poorer people cannot carry the load any longer.

Without poorer people the rich people wouldn't exist.
Have I woken up under a full moon, or is the heat getting to you two? You’re almost getting it.

Soon, you’ll be saying the best way to save money is for everyone to share the burden and that OAPs should forego the WFA and triple lock!! ;-)
 
This got me thinking :

How would people on here feel about a £20k personal allowance and 25p basic income tax rate?

No-one earning less than £20k pays any tax at all.

Anyone earning under £30k takes home more than they do now.

Anyone earning over £30k pays a bit more. Only a tiny bit more obvs if you are earning say £35k. And the maximum extra anyone would have to pay is £1,000. And that's for someone on £50k a year.

I'd say that was pretty fair myself and I would vote for it. I would have to pay the £1k btw.

What do YOU think?

I would be more than happy, I think most people just want it to be as fair as possible.
 
I suspect Farage and co are doing what most if not all politicians do when not in power. Promise the earth without any detail.

This is very similar if not the same as what Labour did before the last GE , infact all political parties do it.

Then if and when they get in, they conveniently forget many of their promises and do something different, like put up taxes, squeeze the welfare budget and scrap the winter fuel allowance ?

Nothing changes with politicians im affraid, they are all cut from very similar cloth when it comes to not being honest with the electorate.

There is also the small issue that all new Governments struggle with, it's much easier to be in opposition than to be in power.

You have to take everything they say in opposition with a pinch of salt.
What "earth" did Labour promise that they have gone back on?

Here's the main promises. Some done, some will take a while.


(Before you reply, check what was actually promised.)
 
Throwing Labour a bone here, I also think that the predicament we find ourselves in, is as challenging - if not more so - as it has ever been.

We have unsustainable levels of debt already; record high taxes which would likely hinder the economy not help it if raised further; an underperforming and under funded NHS; workers who feel they haven't had adequate pay increases for 10 years, on the brink of strikes; greater demands for defence spending; and immigration system out of control; stubborn inflation and resultingly high interest rates; pitiful/no growth; global headwinds with Presidents of both Russia and the US who are bonkers; a welfare bill that's completely unsustainable; and fewer people of working age, working than not.

It's completely fucked. I don't want to detract from this by getting into a "who's fault is that debate". As a conservative, even I blame to Tories in large part.

But we are where we are and god only knows what we can do to get out of this mess. I confess I am stumped. We can't cut taxes without risking a Truss style collapse; We can't borrow more; We can't raise taxes without spiralling down further, depressing growth even more.

As Sully said a few moments before impact: "Have you got any ideas"?
We can start with a moratorium on all legislation unless it can be proved to help economic growth. Perhaps even an all-party cabinet should be set up to tackle this crisis. Two party tribalism has failed this country. We need to modernise everything and make decision-making faster. The entire structure needs simplifying and we can start by getting rid of the House of Lords.
 
How would a successful business try and get out of it? Once the country isn’t run by people with a background in politics and rather people with some level of business acumen we might stand a chance.

If 1% of your customer base generated 30% of your income (that’s just income tax, but they’ll be disproportionately higher on spending taxes & property/wealth taxes) then you wouldn’t try to isolate them. It’s a tough balance but we’ve got it wrong - more of the top 1% are leaving than ever before.

You’d also look at genuine operational efficiency of the state owned cost drivers, health, education & welfare is 50% of the UK budget. Made only worse by the current state of affairs at our borders and the awful wastage across the UK Govt supply chain.

There is no magic wand, there is no perfect solution, but right now both parties seem unsurprisingly completely inadequate to be running a £1.3 trillion cost base & £0.9 trillion revenue base; evidenced by the massive gap between the two. Oh, and debt repayments only explains £0.1 of that gap.

If it was being run like a business, at that scale, you’d cherry pick some of the best CEO & C-suite executives around, and instead we have a bunch of amateurs who’ve been trained how to speak to Media.

Politicians don’t “make the policy” per-se, civil servants give them options and they pick one.

Whilst I get the sentiment of your post it’s not really comparable, businesses will lay off people when times are hard to balance the books, a government’s cost increases during hard times and they can’t really lay off the unemployed unless we bring the Hunger Games or The Purge to life.
 
Just watching the ITV news. All not well between Unite and the Labour Party, it seems? Also, on a related-ish point, Corbyn is really looking his age (76) now. Time for the pipe and slippers fella. Leave the politicking to the young guns. It could end up killing you.
 
Throwing Labour a bone here, I also think that the predicament we find ourselves in, is as challenging - if not more so - as it has ever been.

We have unsustainable levels of debt already; record high taxes which would likely hinder the economy not help it if raised further; an underperforming and under funded NHS; workers who feel they haven't had adequate pay increases for 10 years, on the brink of strikes; greater demands for defence spending; and immigration system out of control; stubborn inflation and resultingly high interest rates; pitiful/no growth; global headwinds with Presidents of both Russia and the US who are bonkers; a welfare bill that's completely unsustainable; and fewer people of working age, working than not.

It's completely fucked. I don't want to detract from this by getting into a "who's fault is that debate". As a conservative, even I blame to Tories in large part.

But we are where we are and god only knows what we can do to get out of this mess. I confess I am stumped. We can't cut taxes without risking a Truss style collapse; We can't borrow more; We can't raise taxes without spiralling down further, depressing growth even more.

As Sully said a few moments before impact: "Have you got any ideas"?
I think you have covered the steps we need to take in this and other posts.

We must raise taxes initially - but not to pour into the drain of our failing state apparatus , it would be unconscionable to do so without a radical reformation of the contract between the state and the individual that re-shapes...

Welfare - We must face into the fact that misplaced compassion and good intentions has transmuted our welfare system into an abomination. It is clearly rife with abuse and its very nature traps millions in poverty, drained of aspiration or even hope. It's no accident that the growing economies of Asia choose not to follow the Welfare models of Western Europe, the CCP believes that it only prolongs poverty - it is hard to disagree. It's time to row back and have some very honest conversations , if necessary back to the notion of the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor.
The safety net should be strong for those in genuine need, those that can work must work and work must be seen to pay. £5 Billion off welfare ? Needs to be x 10 .
Let's not forget Pensions , we cannot afford the triple lock and therefore it must go. It is a truth that a lot of pensioners are relatively wealthy and it's not unreasonable to means test the state pension so it is no longer considered a universal benefit. Defined benefit Public sector pensions are unaffordable, everyone knows it and dialogue needs to start now about how that commitment can be unwound.

Immigration is the reverse side of the Welfare coin, fixing Welfare will go a long way to fixing those numbers.Outside of that, permanent low skilled immigration is economic lunacy. Any needs we have should be met by " guest workers" on fixed visas as can be seen in the Gulf, Singapore etc. High skilled migration is needed to fire the economy. It goes without saying we must leave the ECHR etc etc

The NHS will never deliver the ever increasing prohibitively expensive treatments available on a universal basis. We have crossed the Rubicon with the assisted dying bill, we now need to have the courage to discuss how much of the NHS budget is spent treating patients in the last year of life and is there is an age when is not appropriate to do so? Should everyone be entitled to super expensive cancer treatments ? If you instinctively think yes , think about this, it surely won't be long before the research on anti-aging treatments bears some fruit. Initially no doubt this will be for those who can pay for it, in time the need to further monetise those treatments will make them cheaper. Who should get them ? Would you give them to everyone ? The criminals? the idle ? We need to re-think our medical ethics in the world we now live in . Part of that needs to include what can be afforded and what can't in our economic model
The NHS should deliver a basic level of care for everyone very well. After that we need to re-assess what can be done.

The Civil service is unfit for purpose, like the NHS it has far more headcount than pre-covid but productivity levels still way below 2019 due to a combination of WFH and a culture of poor performance management disciplines. Unbelievably there are 30,000 of them working on " policy" - never have so many delivered so little ! Needs a radical shake up headed by political appointees from the private sector. No government will deliver for us until this is resolved.

Education - Our workforce is unbalanced. We need to reduce University provision and degree courses and expand vocational training . Part of that needs to include a much more honest and public discussion about the impact of AI on the economy and jobs market so people can make a more informed decision on their career paths.

Defence - We have no choice, we must spend more to retain our alliances.

All we need then is a politician stand on a platform of raising taxes ( initially at least), slashing welfare, removing the triple lock on pensions and removing its status as a universal benefit, ending Public sector defined benefit pension entitlement, paring immigration to the bare minimum, reducing the role of the NHS and reducing universal eligibility for some treatments, slashing the civil service and changing the work culture, reducing university places and spending more on defence.

Any takers ?

Probably not. So bankruptcy it will be. When it comes , how much of that will be prescribed to us by the market/ IMF ?
I would suggest most of it, maybe not immigration and defence, Tax rises, pension cuts, welfare cuts, Health service cuts, civil service cuts , Education cuts absolutely - Look at Greece, don't think it won't happen

I agree with @Chippy_boy , it looks hopeless. The last time it looked as bad as this was the 70's , but we did come through it, but we had to take some really bad medicine. We can come through this but we MUST take our medicine, ALL of us.
 
I think you have covered the steps we need to take in this and other posts.

We must raise taxes initially - but not to pour into the drain of our failing state apparatus , it would be unconscionable to do so without a radical reformation of the contract between the state and the individual that re-shapes...

Welfare - We must face into the fact that misplaced compassion and good intentions has transmuted our welfare system into an abomination. It is clearly rife with abuse and its very nature traps millions in poverty, drained of aspiration or even hope. It's no accident that the growing economies of Asia choose not to follow the Welfare models of Western Europe, the CCP believes that it only prolongs poverty - it is hard to disagree. It's time to row back and have some very honest conversations , if necessary back to the notion of the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor.
The safety net should be strong for those in genuine need, those that can work must work and work must be seen to pay. £5 Billion off welfare ? Needs to be x 10 .
Let's not forget Pensions , we cannot afford the triple lock and therefore it must go. It is a truth that a lot of pensioners are relatively wealthy and it's not unreasonable to means test the state pension so it is no longer considered a universal benefit. Defined benefit Public sector pensions are unaffordable, everyone knows it and dialogue needs to start now about how that commitment can be unwound.

Immigration is the reverse side of the Welfare coin, fixing Welfare will go a long way to fixing those numbers.Outside of that, permanent low skilled immigration is economic lunacy. Any needs we have should be met by " guest workers" on fixed visas as can be seen in the Gulf, Singapore etc. High skilled migration is needed to fire the economy. It goes without saying we must leave the ECHR etc etc

The NHS will never deliver the ever increasing prohibitively expensive treatments available on a universal basis. We have crossed the Rubicon with the assisted dying bill, we now need to have the courage to discuss how much of the NHS budget is spent treating patients in the last year of life and is there is an age when is not appropriate to do so? Should everyone be entitled to super expensive cancer treatments ? If you instinctively think yes , think about this, it surely won't be long before the research on anti-aging treatments bears some fruit. Initially no doubt this will be for those who can pay for it, in time the need to further monetise those treatments will make them cheaper. Who should get them ? Would you give them to everyone ? The criminals? the idle ? We need to re-think our medical ethics in the world we now live in . Part of that needs to include what can be afforded and what can't in our economic model
The NHS should deliver a basic level of care for everyone very well. After that we need to re-assess what can be done.

The Civil service is unfit for purpose, like the NHS it has far more headcount than pre-covid but productivity levels still way below 2019 due to a combination of WFH and a culture of poor performance management disciplines. Unbelievably there are 30,000 of them working on " policy" - never have so many delivered so little ! Needs a radical shake up headed by political appointees from the private sector. No government will deliver for us until this is resolved.

Education - Our workforce is unbalanced. We need to reduce University provision and degree courses and expand vocational training . Part of that needs to include a much more honest and public discussion about the impact of AI on the economy and jobs market so people can make a more informed decision on their career paths.

Defence - We have no choice, we must spend more to retain our alliances.

All we need then is a politician stand on a platform of raising taxes ( initially at least), slashing welfare, removing the triple lock on pensions and removing its status as a universal benefit, ending Public sector defined benefit pension entitlement, paring immigration to the bare minimum, reducing the role of the NHS and reducing universal eligibility for some treatments, slashing the civil service and changing the work culture, reducing university places and spending more on defence.

Any takers ?

Probably not. So bankruptcy it will be. When it comes , how much of that will be prescribed to us by the market/ IMF ?
I would suggest most of it, maybe not immigration and defence, Tax rises, pension cuts, welfare cuts, Health service cuts, civil service cuts , Education cuts absolutely - Look at Greece, don't think it won't happen

I agree with @Chippy_boy , it looks hopeless. The last time it looked as bad as this was the 70's , but we did come through it, but we had to take some really bad medicine. We can come through this but we MUST take our medicine, ALL of us.
Lots of good stuff in there but I cannot agree about means testing the state pension.

You cannot say to someone like me who's paid into the state pension every year for 40+ years, and saved hard so they can retire with a modicum of comfort, "Sorry but because you've made sacrifices and others haven't, they can have a full state pension but you can't". Nor say to someone like my Mrs who missed some years and therefore chose to pay £13k to the HMRC in voluntary NI top up, so that she could get a full state pension, "thanks for the £13k but you aren't getting a full state pension either".

No, no, no. A thousand times no.

I am genuinely quite generous and open to me paying higher tax to help do my bit. But taking my pension away at my stage of life is a red line.

I'm not a violent person but I swear to god there are limits!
 

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